Thoughts and not thoughts…

P.S. By the way, if you are not doing so already try sitting in half-lotus (or even better full lotus). I found that physically (and mentally) more stabler and calming than the burmese position

Hi Sam,
please be careful with advice like this. Trying to force their body into a position can be unhealthy for people. Some people are not able to take certain positions and may get discouraged by comments like this.

Gassho
Nindo
willsittoday

[Ernstguitar]

Hi Jundo,

thank you and yes. I´ve got it. (or I hope so )

Unlike in weight training, where I may wish to get stronger and stronger, and bigger and bigger muscles, we rest content just as we are…..

I compare it just with the daily practice. I do my practice in the gym-room (not every day, but….) without the wish of getting stronger or so now. It is just a good form of physical practice becourse of the many hours of sitting.

I do not think, that somebody starts without the idea of getting better, whatever that means. I think, that more and more I get the idea of what you said.(I hope.)
So, after 5 years I now understand what you mean with "nothing in need of…". (what does not mean, that I really feel it always)

Thanks

Gassho, Ernst
sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Ernst,

I will say that our Way has a strange kind of progession and "getting better". We progress and "get better" by abandoning all need, right to the marrow, of need to "progress" and "get better". Unlike in weight training, where I may wish to get stronger and stronger, and bigger and bigger muscles, we rest content just as we are ... already Buddha. In fact, we are now content to grow weak, sick, infirm, aged as we all inevitably will (as the Buddha did in fact, growing old and infirm). One comes to experience a way of reality that cannot grow old, and never weakens ... even as we grow old and weak.

Now, don't misunderstand what I say and use it as an excuse to stop going to the gym, to abandon the diet, or become more angry and greedy, or to quit trying to improve ourselves in countless ways. Even though fat Buddha is Buddha, and "in shape" Buddha is Buddha, it is healthier to be in shape! If we are angry and greedy, we may still be "Buddha" on some level ... but will be blind to the fact.

Therefore, our Buddhist way is to know that, if we do not "progress and get better", we are still Buddha. If we "progress and get better", we are still Buddha. Either way is fine, no place to progress, nothing to gain or lose. Nonetheless, it is still probably a good idea to live in a healthy way.

Understand?

As one is sticking to one's diet, one should simultaneously know that there is "nothing in need of losing" ... yet avoid the chocolate cake nonetheless. As one is pumping iron in the gym, one should feel "there is nothing in need of gaining" ... yet maybe push for one more set.

Gassho, J

SatToday!

[Ernstguitar]

Hi Tony,

I am not contributing a lot in the forum. And there was the question you asked, which provoked me to ask you something:
"Did you read the question of Jundo?"
The answers you´ve got are very helpful and I just say "yes" to nearly every suggestion you´ve got.
But…..you did not give an answer. So I asked myself: "Did he get his answer and everything is clear now
or was it just to give a sign of life?"
Perhaps it is much easier than it seems. I sit zazen like doing weight-lifting. It is not always joy to practice. But if you do it
for a certain time the muscles gain and the body gets well. Not today, and not because of a mystical secret.
It is because you lift the weight everyday.
The "wrong" zazen grows and if you do it with a joyful approach it gets better and better everyday.
You may think, that there is no progression, but it is.

Sorry for my redundant statement, but I was pushed from your "no-answer".

Gassho, Ernst
Sat today

[alan.r]

Hello all

In my experience, some people are just very analytic in their approach to EVERYTHING in life.

So, perhaps for those of you of a more analytic bent, the nuts and bolts of shikantaza may be very important, yet I would argue that this is the very thing we are trying to let go of when we sit.

Hi Clark,

Yes, I like this a lot. It's definitely true for me. An interesting thing, I actually think zazen probably goes the other way too, for those not "analytical" enough. There's a balance that develops. What I mean is: for the over-thinker, like me, always spinning the thought wheels, there's often a lot of anxiety, etc, and Zazen balances that out with actual doing (probably one of the reasons I've always liked sports, I get to "just do, just play," but afterwards, I'd think and think about it). Anyway, for the less analytical person, zazen could be really helpful in brightening up that side of oneself too - for instance, there are people (I've lived with them) who don't even realize they're stressed out (whereas the over-thinkers think and think about why they're stressed, adding to the stress (or at least the case for me!)). And so, sitting might allow one to bring a bit of awareness to everyday life, that necessary bit of "analysis" of oneself so that they might be able to say, Oh wow, I'm stressed and I didn't even realize it.

Anyway, just adding some thoughts - it's a balance thing, is all I'm saying, I guess.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

[Jundo]

Hello all

In my experience, some people are just very analytic in their approach to EVERYTHING in life. Note for the record I did NOT say anal. There is nothing wrong with this, we NEED people like this because some things in life require this approach.

Oh, my analysis is that you are quite correct! In fact, I started Zazen about 33 years ago in the analytical and debate-filled environment of law school, and I consider myself a pretty analytical fellow in approaching life. There are plenty of times in life when analysis is appropriate.

It is just that Shikantaza is not a time for analysis, a divisive and oppositional approach to life which breaks things down into "this and that" parts and ranks. In that way, it may be more like experiencing a falling leaf. The biologist may analyze the biolgical structure of the leaf, the causes of its falling, and categorize all with a latin name. However, there is a time just to inhale the lovely Autumn scene.

That is my analysis.

Neither stir up the falling leaves, nor fight their falling. Each falling leaf is Buddha falling.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ishin]

Hello all

In my experience, some people are just very analytic in their approach to EVERYTHING in life. Note for the record I did NOT say anal. There is nothing wrong with this, we NEED people like this because some things in life require this approach. We can study every muscle and movement involved in throwing a baseball pitch. I am told by one scientist, that this took up 96 pages of a dissertation on the subject. However, reading those 96 pages doesn't really help us all that much when it comes to actually throwing the baseball over the plate. It takes practice, and actually doing it, and getting a feel for what throwing a baseball is actually like requires picking one up and DOING it.

So, perhaps for those of you of a more analytic bent, the nuts and bolts of shikantaza may be very important, yet I would argue that this is the very thing we are trying to let go of when we sit. Also, if you get frustrated, well sit with that. The frustration is something we all work with in all arenas of life. That's dukkha!

For me, when I notice my mind drifting, I just very gently say to myself "thinking" and return to the practice. Be kind to yourself. Even lousy shikantaza is good zazen.

If it gets really bad I try to visualize the thoughts one by one as they come up as leaves falling off a tree. Up there's one! Let it fall. Up, there's another.. let it fall. Drop every leaf.

Just DO it. This message brought to you by Nike/ Non-Nike.

Gassho
C

Sat Today!

[Jishin]

Help me find my thoughts! I lost them somewhere and can't find them says I while thinking about thinking and nonthinking.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[shikantazen]

Stick to a method
Stop asking questions and sit for a decade
Then sit for a decade more

My new year commitments

Gassho,
Sam
Sat Today

P.S. By the way, if you are not doing so already try sitting in half-lotus (or even better full lotus). I found that physically (and mentally) more stabler and calming than the burmese position

[Jundo]

Teflon Zen! Thank you, Rich.

One aspect to emphasize is that, as we do not grab onto and "pay no never mind" to the dripping faucet of thoughts, they are just there without our being caught. They may fade from mind, like the leaky faucet no longer noticed though heard.

But, as well, do not fail to sit Zazen with an attitude of the Wholeness and Completion of the action of sitting, the one place and action called for in that instant of sitting. As we sit in the Peace, Wholeness and Illumination which manifests, when the drops do appear and are noticed, a certain Light shines though, a certain Silence right through the dripping noise. Then, each "drip drip drip" changes, and somehow proves itself to be also Buddha Buddha Buddha.

In other words, life's thoughts either do not catch us or, when they are engaged (because human beings are thinking/feeling beings, and cannot do without thoughts and emotions), also prove to shine with Wisdom and Compassion too. The drip drip drip is not the same drip drip drip as before. Then, each "drip drip drip" changes, and somehow proves itself to also be "Buddha Buddha Buddha" holding and reflecting all the world, each and all whole round and complete. Then, it is not just the same bothersome and annoying dripping as before, the thoughts are not quite the same deluded thoughts as before. Each drop is itself as clear and nonjudgmental as a mirror.

Something like that.

Tony, may I ask you a question? I get the impression that you are actually practicing another flavor of meditation (perhaps Chan or Dzogchen) as presented by some other teacher in a more analytical and "stage" oriented way. There are so many such kinds of meditation, many flavors of lovely fruit. Or, it may be what some Teacher is calling "Shikantaza", but it is actually very categorizing and stage oriented about the process. I get the impression that you may then be coming here for advice on that, although those apples may be a bit different from true Shikantaza non-oranges. Am I wrong?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Heisoku]

Hi Tony
Steve Heine in his book 'Buddhism: it's not what you think' makes a lovely observation that it is really difficult to recall exactly what was in your mind when you started reading this sentence. If you maintain that awareness then that's a start!
The next question by Bassui to follow up with is 'What is your mind?'
Don't you just love this zen stuff!
Gassho
Heisoku
Sat today.

[Rich]

Usually if I allow all my thoughts and feelings, they pass away like everything else. Try practicing Teflon Zen. Nothing sticks to it 😃😁😂
Sat today

[Jinyo]

Hi Tony - some helpful answers here. I think we all experience what you describe.

I really feel to just relax into what is. Perhaps some other traditions focus on being free from cognition but that isn't the essence of Zazen

(as I understand it).

I would say to be able to 'think not thinking' there has to be a thinker - it's not necessary to try to abolish that facet of mind. And zazen is often messy - thoughts/cognitions floating all over the place - no different to life in general.

The gift is honing the ability to observe - to detatch but not negate. That's quite a gift to take into our everyday lives - for me that's where this practice really kicks
into action.

And sometimes - not all that often - I experience a real sense of peace. Best not to stress about whether that's a pure experience or a cognition - it's just good when it happens

Gassho

Willow

Sat Today - and it was very messy - just an observation not a judgement.

[Jundo]

Hi Tony,

We do not "witness thoughts", we do not "experience the thoughts". Please do not try to find "where they arise from or where they go".

Rather, just ignore the thoughts, do not grab on, do not become tangled, and pay 'em no never mind. If there is a "a constant presence or dialogue sometimes whispering in my ear" simply let it whisper, do not respond or answer back. (As in the dripping faucet analogy below), thoughts come and go, and we do not seek to halt them, we do not seek to open the spigot wider ... but neither do we engage. The Mahamudra instruction from Kokuu feels right ...

Let go of what has passed.
Let go of what may come.
Let go of what is happening now.
Don’t try to figure anything out.
Don’t try to make anything happen.
Relax, right now, and rest.

If you think "there is a gap", then there is a gap of your own making. If one does not think "there is a gap", then there is no gap. Please stop thinking that "there is a gap" ... and the gap is gone.

Tony said ...

I think I can sum it up by saying there are either thoughts (and lots of them) or a dull lack of awareness…. ….rarely an awareness of any space between thoughts.

No, you just make these artificial divisions and categories. Bullshit.

I once lived in a cheap apartment with a dripping faucet outside my window. The landlord promised to fix it, but did not. When I would obsess and focus on the dripping, it would become so loud and drive me mad. I could not sleep. But, after awhile, I just did not engage. The faucet was still dripping ... drip drip drip ... but I did not hear, was not aware, not disturbed. Yes, the "dripping" is our thoughts. No need to turn them off, just do not pay heed, do not fixate, do not be caught.

During Zazen, if finding oneself caught, tangled, engaging with the drip drip drip ... let it go. Disengage. Return to just sitting (to the posture of the breath if one needs). Water still drips and drips, but you do not drown in it.

One more point:

What Kokuu said here about "no special state" is a bit misleading ... because every state. moment and thing is Special!

We just sit. There is no aim to achieve any special state.

You wouldn't criticise a mirror for reflecting what is there.

No, to be a mirror ... unfazed and allowing of all that is reflected within it, all the states, moments and things, beautiful and ugly, big and small ... is a most "special state". It is the "special state" in which one finds the wholeness, interpenetration and sacred nature of even the most ordinary and mundane displayed in the clarity of the mirror. "Just Sitting" does not mean "just sittin' around"!

Stop judging the experience and, instead, sit beyond judgments in the Total Completeness of the simple act of sitting. Do not forget to sit with the attitude that sitting is in and of itself a perfect action, the one place to be and one thing to do in that moment of sitting. Sit with the attitude of "nothing in need of fixing, nothing to add or take away" from that moment. Sit with the attitude that a moment of sitting is a moment of Buddha Sitting. Then, every drop of water holds the entire Ocean!

But if you think something is lacking, that there is some separation, something to fix, then guess what!? Then there is separation, lacking and much to fix. The faucet goes DRIP DRIP DRIP!

Instead, sit as a mirror, and every drop of water is a sacred drop of Buddha. Buddha drippiing dripping dripping Buddha.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Ugrok]

The magical thing, for me, is that as long as we keep on sitting, this all sorts out by itself. So don't even try "not to try" - which is the next logical trap i fell in, obviously ("okay, now i'll really let go and let my thoughts be totally free !" this does not work either - because in fact there is no problem to solve other than one we are totally making ourselves !). The solution to all this stuff and those unnecessary knots is the sitting itself ! As long as you are sitting with whatever is, even if it is "fighting" or "struggling" or "trying not to try", it's ok. Don't bother with anything else than sitting.

Gassho

Ugrok, satoday