What happens when it feels good?

[Ugrok]

Also in terms of the Tibetan side of things, whenever I read or listen to Pema Chodron, I really learn a lot. She's a very good teacher in my personal opinion.

Seconding this. She is really great. Reading a book by Pema Chodron just eases any difficult experience. You feel that what you are going through, whatever it is, she's been through, and that it's no problem ; even more, it is a way to progress. Her texts are really "right speech", and they are not about easy stuff nor do they propose an "easy" way out, or a way out at all. It's honest and to the point. I love what she writes.

Gassho,
Ugrok, sat today

[Jundo]

... I sometimes wonder however if they don't get a little bit too obsessed with the own symbolism and imagery. All the robes, pseudo-deities, tantric empowerments, esoteric spells and hereditary spiritual progress (lamas, tulkus etc.).

Surely it attracts lots curious western folks eager for eschatological (great word ain't it?) answers and oriental trappings. But the important question for me is if the Tibetan Buddhist modus operandi is in the long run obscuring the real purpose of the Buddhas Teachings rather than furthering it. Right on the face of it I certainly think so. But I'm not qualified to rule on that. All I can say is that for myself I find Tibetan Buddhism unhelpful and suspiciously "un-Here". I stick to the zafu.

Hi Aske,

I do not believe it a matter of right or wrong, and I very much hesitate to criticize another's ways. When the meaning and effect of each of those Practices are studied, they each hold great significance and much to teach. Each are doorways of the Dharma. Zen may prefer a less ornate and simpler way (although, if one ever visits a Zen temple in Japan, China or Korea, one may be surprised to find that Zen folks traditionally have their own share of robes, deities, empowerments and esoteric spells!). Moreover, each may be helpful to someone, even if not for everyone .... and so it is for Zen practice too, which may not be right for those who need the art and powerful imagery.

I often say that French cooking is delicious and nutritious, Chinese cooking is delicious and nutritious, the relatively subtle and simple tastes of Japanese cooking is delicious and nutritious ... yet suited to different tastes.

Gassho, J

Sat Today!

PS - If one travels to Japan, one will find many elements of Mikkyo (Esoteric) ritual in Zen temples, with it beauty, tradition and power on a symbolic or psychological level. One can see these practices (e.g., the "reading" of the Sutra by twirling much like a Tibetan prayer wheel, the Vajra, the hidden Mudra, the Dharani incantation) in the below video of a Zen ceremony. Some folks might be surprised that these rituals are so central to Zen practice in China and Japan ... arguably more central, more widely practiced by numbers of priests and time, than Zazen. These are not Practices I pursue and encourage (I tend to not include them in our ritual here), but they are mainstream in Zen practice in Asia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scUfDKqvrMg&feature=related

[Meikyo]

Dear Jundo

Of course you're right! My post only reflects my personal reservations toward the Vajrayāna school and thus is very much less than half the story. Truly I'm not up to snuff on Buddhist merits against a genuine and devout Vajrayāna-fellow. I think many folks could learn many things from one another. Buddhists included. I don't like their food and I'm not going to lie about it. But I'm still waiting for their chefs to wow me - because I know that they can - and it's gonna be awesome!

Gassho
Aske
#Sat Today!

[mu_shim]

I sometimes wonder however if they don't get a little bit too obsessed with the own symbolism and imagery. All the robes, pseudo-deities, tantric empowerments, esoteric spells and hereditary spiritual progress (lamas, tulkus etc.).

...
But the important question for me is if the Tibetan Buddhist modus operandi is in the long run obscuring the real purpose of the Buddhas Teachings rather than furthering it.

Just thought I'd give the perspective of someone who has been involved in Tibetan Vajrayana.


I remember the first time I visited a Tibetan temple, before I ever started meditating, I couldn't get out of there fast enough. Undoubtedly from the outside, Tibetan Buddhism has a vast array of stuff, which can seem baffling. But at its heart is the bodhicitta vow. All of the practices that seem strange have a meaning that relates to developing wisdom and compassion- everything is symbolic of one or both of those two qualities. All of the 'deities' are ultimately seen as nothing other than oneself, expressions of our own intrinsic enlightened nature. So in many respects there's a lot of similarity to Zen.


One of the things that drew me to Tibetan Buddhism was the overt emphasis on the cultivation of compassion. At the time, I found that lacking in Zen. (I've since come to understand that has more to do with the one particular Zen group I was familiar with at that time). The Tibetan traditions all study the core teachings of Buddhism, from the Pali canon to Mahayana texts, and then incorporate the Vajrayana approach.


Some of the Tibetan traditions, particularly Dzogchen and Kagyu, place a lot of emphasis on objectless meditation, very much akin to shikantaza. The difference is that typically emphasis is placed on studying general Buddhist texts and on doing other practices before moving onto the formless practices.


I think with any tradition, there's a risk of attaching to its external forms, and missing its heart. But they all have validity I believe, or as Jundo says, different tastes for different people.


I like the way Dogen puts it:

I say: Remember, among Buddhists we do not argue about superiority and inferiority of philosophies, or choose between shallowness and profundity in the Dharma; we need only know whether the practice is genuine or artificial.

[Meikyo]

"I say: Remember, among Buddhists we do not argue about superiority and inferiority of philosophies, or choose between shallowness and profundity in the Dharma; we need only know whether the practice is genuine or artificial."

Thank you very much for input. I genuinely like Dogen's perspective.

Gassho
Aske
#SAT TODAY!

[Heisoku]

That is a good quote from Dogen and it really is up to us to verify our practice.
In Tibetan mahamudra there are four yogas which are echoed in zen; one pointedness, limitlessness of mind, one taste and non meditation where there is no difference between meditation and post meditation mind.
These are just signposts so it is a benefit to have a place and teacher to test understanding.

Good or bad... only one taste!
Gassho Heisoku
Sat today.