What happens when it feels good?

[Jundo]

Jundo actually said feeling good is not the point, but when it happens I feel grateful.

Hmmm. I usually say that there is a certain Felling Good (Big "FG") that transcends and holds all the small human moments of feeling good and not feeling good. Believe it or not, we come to Feel Good even about and when not always feeling good all the time! And such is realized in Shikantaza.

Gassho, J (written after coming from the dentist, which did not feel so good).

Sat Today!

[Kyonin]

Hi all,

I would rather say that Shikantaza allows you to Feel. I guess it goes beyond good or bad.

Or at least that's in my point of view.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Myosha]

Hello,

" . . . come to Feel Good even about and when not always feeling good all the time! . . . realized in Shikantaza." - Jundo



Thank you acceptance and education.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Troy]

Hi all,

I would rather say that Shikantaza allows you to Feel. I guess it goes beyond good or bad.

Or at least that's in my point of view.

Gassho,

Kyonin

_|sat2today|_

[Tai Shi]

Okay, does that mean that meditation can make me feel good and it usually does or I wouldn't do. What a great day. I have found a group of like minded people who really like what I do. The Dhali Lama says he is a simple monk, and that's what I want to do. I want to follow the first precept, do good, do good for others, and I want to simplify my relationship with other people. I would like to have a few Friends who really care when I die. I am 63, and I get to choose, and I feel honored to be a real part of this Zendo thank you. Elgwyn Gassho I sat today.

[Jundo]

Lovely to have you here too, Elgwyn,

Speaking about the Dalai Lama, we have had a couple of discussion in the past about what it means when the Dalai Lama and some other popular Tibetan teachers write books on "The Art of Happiness" and such. Turns out that it may be about what we are speaking of here.

I like to be happy! Nothing wrong with happy! YIPPEE!

But crazy fellow that I am, I also kinda like now to be sad. Sad is life too. Nothing wrong with sad sometimes (although sometimes it is really hard, and not as much fun as happy). YIPPEE!

================

The Tibetans tend to speak of "Happiness" quite a bit in their books and talks ... but when looked at closely, it is much the same as the subtle Joy and Peace that we speak of in the Zen corner of the woods ... a Joy that holds comfortably the happy times and sad times, a Peace that is wholly all life's many pieces.

Frankly, if somebody just wanted to be "happy happy happy", I think there are pharmaceuticals that will do the job faster and deeper than any meditation ... at least for a short time.

I sometimes think that the Tibetans writers chose the word "Happiness" in their literature to impress Westerners. The problem is that some folks may hear that and think that they are going to find the key to 24/7 "laughing gas" happiness ... and are a bit disappointed when in fact what is delivered is something much more subtle (though fathomlessly richer). I once wrote ...

Even in Tibetan Buddhism's emphasis on "happiness" ... such words might disguise the real teaching of the Dalai Lama and most Tibetan Teachers I know (same message as here at Treeleaf, in fact) that the point of this Practice is not the attaining of a happy happy ha ha happy happiness all the time (I have never met such a constantly giddy Tibetan teacher, and who would want such a state ... like only watching the comedy movies and never the drama!), but of a certain subtle Happiness (big "H") that transcends AND yet fully contains both the happy times and the sad, smiles and tears, the rainy days and sunny days, as judged by small human eyes in this life of Samsara. I do not think they are teaching people to feel happy that their mother died or tickled that there is a war somewhere in the world ... but a Boundless Joy and Buddha's Smile that shines through all that life can dish out.

A Buddha's Happiness transcends and holds small human "happy and sad".



Gassho, J

Sat Today!

[Kyonin]

Hi Jundo,

Could it be that Tibetan Buddhism depends too much on adding new adepts? Speaking about happiness and well being is much more attractive to people than actually slap them hard with the reality that death and sadness are also important part of life.

In my experience with them I can say that yes, they put a lot of effort in making people feel good all the time. It's in advanced studies when they really start hitting subjects a bit more harsh.

Happiness sells, I guess.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

Could it be that Tibetan Buddhism depends too much on adding new adepts?

Hi Kyonin,

Well, I would not say so, but I have never been a practitioner with a Tibetan school. Talking to some folks, my understanding is that speaking about "Happiness" is better for a book title, and more attractive to the eye (especially for westerners standing in book stores), than a word for the more subtle (and thus radically profound) lessons actually being offered of peace, transcendence, wisdom, gratitude, allowance, oneness, celebration and equanimity not dependent on a life that has its happy and sad times like any life.

Gassho, J

Sat Today!

[Ugrok]

Hello guys !

When you read people like Trungpa or Pema Chodron, who are from a tibetan lineage, it is very clear that happiness for them is not about feeling good all the time. They both wrote about a transcending happiness, that you can find through fear, loss and despair. They don't seem "dishonest" to me, on the contrary, they deal with the most difficult situations of human life, as show the titles of their books ("Wisdom of no escape", "When things fall apart", "Smile at fear", etc.) !

Gassho,
Ugrok,
Sat Today.

[Jundo]

Hello guys !

When you read people like Trungpa or Pema Chodron, who are from a tibetan lineage, it is very clear that happiness for them is not about feeling good all the time. They both wrote about a transcending happiness, that you can find through fear, loss and despair. They don't seem "dishonest" to me, on the contrary, they deal with the most difficult situations of human life, as show the titles of their books ("Wisdom of no escape", "When things fall apart", "Smile at fear", etc.) !

Gassho,
Ugrok,
Sat Today.

Thank you Ugrok. That is my impression too.

Gassho, Jundo

Sat Today!

[mu_shim]

Could it be that Tibetan Buddhism depends too much on adding new adepts? Speaking about happiness and well being is much more attractive to people than actually slap them hard with the reality that death and sadness are also important part of life.

I think that's a touch harsh against Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama. It's hardly like he needs to recruit adepts.
I've practised in the tradition for a number of years, and have been at teachings by the Dalai Lama, where he has openly cried. He also speaks often about the suffering of Tibetans at the hands of the Chinese regime.


I think some books, like 'The Art of Happiness' are geared towards a non-Buddhist or more mainstream audience. They're an attempt to make some of the basic Buddhist teachings accessible to the average person. Even that book has chapters on 'finding meaning in pain and suffering', and 'dealing with anger and hatred'.

All of the traditional Tibetan Gelug (the Dalai Lama's own lineage) teachings start out with the contemplation of the inevitability of death, the uncertainty of when it will occur, and on the impermanence of all existence. The happiness mentioned in some of the more mainstream books is not about generating some kind of hysterical always 'up' state of being, but more about that sense of well-being that comes from facing reality and ourselves squarely and with compassion. Which includes the ability to sit with and not be overwhelmed by or attached to pain, suffering, bliss, grief, joy, excitement, etc.

[Meikyo]

Hi again.

Thanks everyone for a nice thread.

I have no doubt that the essential truths of the different Buddhist schools are the same as many already have pointed out. Thus I'm not fundamentally worried in any way whether they use this word or that word. I sometimes wonder however if they don't get a little bit too obsessed with the own symbolism and imagery. All the robes, pseudo-deities, tantric empowerments, esoteric spells and hereditary spiritual progress (lamas, tulkus etc.).

Surely it attracts lots curious western folks eager for eschatological (great word ain't it?) answers and oriental trappings. But the important question for me is if the Tibetan Buddhist modus operandi is in the long run obscuring the real purpose of the Buddhas Teachings rather than furthering it. Right on the face of it I certainly think so. But I'm not qualified to rule on that. All I can say is that for myself I find Tibetan Buddhism unhelpful and suspiciously "un-Here". I stick to the zafu.

On the other hand I have great respect for all those learned traditional fellows who deticate their life Dharma as monks and whatnot. I'm just not so sure they're as right and as needed as they themselves seem to think they are at this time.

Gassho
Aske

[Risho]

But crazy fellow that I am, I also kinda like now to be sad. Sad is life too. Nothing wrong with sad sometimes (although sometimes it is really hard, and not as much fun as happy). YIPPEE!

You know I kind of know what you mean. When we put our dog to sleep a couple months back, I felt like practice allowed me to directly face the grief and to cry my heart out unreservedly. Although I was very sad, it was also just what it was.

Also in terms of the Tibetan side of things, whenever I read or listen to Pema Chodron, I really learn a lot. She's a very good teacher in my personal opinion. I favor Zen to Tibetan Buddhism obviously, but there is much to learn from any teacher, even if they have different ways to conveying wisdom and, I think, whichever path feels right is the one someone should go down.

Gassho,

Risho
-sat today

[dharmasponge]

Let's not forget that the Dalai Lama has agendas that are not all to do with Buddhism. He is after all a political figurehead too. I'm neither for nor against His Holiness, I just think it's important to remember there are two sides to every coin.

[Jamen]

I recognize pleasurable feelings and anxieties as they arise. They both like to drag me away.