What happens when it feels good?

[dharmasponge]

Sometimes when I sit I get a very pleasant almost sensual experience of openness and spaciousness. I'm reminded of the Jhanas in the Theravadin tradition - though I think it would be arrogant to suggest it's that.

Question is do we dismiss or allow this feeling like any other or is it a useful signpost (like the Jhanas)?

Haha! I'm. Paranoid about using phrases like 'the path' and 'signpost' as I don't want to invite 'there is no path' stuff.....you get my gist anyway

_/|\_

[Ugrok]

Hello !

In my experience, to just let it be as it is is the "best" way. If you grasp it and begin to try to feel it again (as i did, obviously), you might end up with the contrary effect. Just sit with whatever is there would be my approach on this. Hope to hear Jundo about this !

Gassho,
Ugrok

[Kyonin]

Hi!

Yes, zazen feels fantastic sometimes. So good that you might want to actually chase that feeling again. Don't, because not zazen not always is nice and fluffy. It is what it is and that's it.

Just be contempt with that and move on with your life.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Jishin]

It happens.

Gassho, Jishin

[Meikyo]

Hi.

What the other guys said. Also though it reminds me of something Brad Warner said. It goes something like:
Be especially careful when zazen feels good. Because then you risk clinging onto a concept of what (za)Zen ought to be like. On the other hand if you feel like "that was the worst zazen like ever" You will most likely resolve to do better and there's less clinging there. It's also probably a tad more realistic too than the (wanting of the) blissful state. See things as they are y'know.

Bonus:

Wise words from Oogway Roshi

---
Be well and good sitting

Gassho
Aske

[Jundo]

What all those guys said! And in this way one attains a Big P Pleasant that sweeps in and through small human times of "pleasant" and "unpleasant" and in between.

Gassho, J

PS - By the way, I have this little notion that the equanimity of Shikantaza is the equanimity of the 4th Jhana. However, well, it don't matter if it is or ain't, and is just a topic for Buddhist history wonks. Apparently, I mentioned this pet theory to you awhile back ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12313-The-shift&p=128353&viewfull=1#post128353

Richard Shankman's book makes one very interesting point that, perhaps, can be interpreted to mean that practices such as Shikantaza and the like actually cut right to the summit of Jhana practice. You see, it might perhaps be argued (from some interpretations presented in the book) that Shikantaza practice is very close to what is referred to as the "Fourth Jhana in the Suttas" ... as opposed to the highly concentrated, hyper-absorbed Visuddhimagga commentary version. The Fourth Jhana in the Pali Suttas was considered the 'summit' of Jhana practice (as the higher Jhana, No. 5 to 8, were not encouraged as a kind of otherworldly 'dead end') and appears to manifest (quoting the sutta descriptions in the book) "an abandoning of pleasure, pain, attractions/aversions, a dropping of both joy and grief", a dropping away of both rapture and bliss states, resulting in a "purity of mindfulness" and "equanimity". Combine this with the fact that, more than a "one pointed mind absorbed into a particular object", there is a "unification of mind" (described as a broader awareness around the object of meditation ... whereby the "mind itself becomes collected and unmoving, but not the objects of awareness, as mindfulness becomes lucid, effortless and unbroken" (See, for examples. pages 82-83 here))

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=lQ_ZzFgJ1AwC&lpg=PP1&ots=Nfh_Zax84P&dq=richard%20skankman&pg=PA80#v=onepage&q&f=false

A bit of the discussion of the highest (in Buddhist Practice) "Fourth Jhana", and its emphasis on equanimity while present amid circumstances (and a dropping of bliss states), can be found on page 49.

This is very close to a description of Shikantaza, for example, as dropping all aversions and attractions, finding unification of mind, collected and unmoving, effortless and unbroken, in/as/through/not removed from the life, circumstances, complexities which surround us and are us, sitting still with what is just as it is.

[Mp]

Sometimes zazen is nice, sometimes zazen is not so nice ... either way, I sit zazen. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[RichardH]

PS - By the way, I have this little notion that the equanimity of Shikantaza is the equanimity of the 4th Jhana. However, well, it don't matter if it is or ain't, and is just a topic for Buddhist history wonks. Apparently, I mentioned this pet theory to you awhile back ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post128353

Now that pricks up my ears.... will read again this evening

Gassho
Daizan

[Rich]

So when you smile, did the smile make you feel good or did you feel good and then smiled about it ? I don't care about a blissful state but dogen did talk about the joy and ease of just sitting.

Kind regards. /\

[Shinzan]

Allowing it to be as it is, yummy and crummy.

(Love that Oogway roshi)
_/\_ Shinzan

[Mp]

Allowing it to be as it is, yummy and crummy.

(Love that Oogway roshi)
_/\_ Shinzan

=)

Gassho
Shingen

[Byokan]

A student went to his meditation teacher and said, "My meditation is horrible! I feel so distracted, or my legs ache, or I'm constantly falling asleep. It's just horrible!" "It will pass," the teacher said matter-of-factly. A week later, the student came back to his teacher. "My meditation is wonderful! I feel so aware, so peaceful, so alive! It's just wonderful!" "It will pass," the teacher replied matter-of-factly.

Gassho
Lisa

[Jundo]

A student went to his meditation teacher and said, "My meditation is horrible! I feel so distracted, or my legs ache, or I'm constantly falling asleep. It's just horrible!" "It will pass," the teacher said matter-of-factly. A week later, the student came back to his teacher. "My meditation is wonderful! I feel so aware, so peaceful, so alive! It's just wonderful!" "It will pass," the teacher replied matter-of-factly.

Gassho
Lisa

[Shinzan]

Lisa, Spot On! "This too shall pass."

[Tai Shi]

Sometimes I have monkey mind and sometimes I feel good meditating, Just depends, and no way of knowing, and I think with practice comes deeper meditation but not always, Jundo actually said feeling good is not the point, but when it happens I feel grateful.