How do we know…

[Rich]

How does one realize it?
For Dogen to say that practice is realization, I think he must have had complete faith in himself and accepted everything about himself including his pain and suffering. So I guess the answer to your question is sit more which is something I need to do also.

Kind regards. /\

[Joyo]

And when/how does one "realize" it?
I mean the absence of separation.

For now I'm just running on faith, on belief, like expecting to experience that insight.
Faith or belief on the Buddha, the teachers, the teachings.
But no experience yet.

Must I sit more, and think less maybe?


Gassho,
Walter

Hi Walter, please keep in mind this is coming from an inexperienced beginner. From my limited experience, one doesn't have a "realizing" moment. Like a baby becoming a child, becoming a man, it happens gradually and in many ways, it is a process that is slow and unnoticed. I wouldn't pay attention to realizing or expecting anything. Just practice by sitting and living.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Jishin]

How do we know…

How do we know that what we consider to be our waking life is not a dream? And that our dreams are not reality?

Dried shit-stick!

Gassho, Jishin

[Daitetsu]

I wouldn't pay attention to realizing or expecting anything. Just practice by sitting and living.

That's good advice!

By just sitting we actualize buddha-nature - no need to attain or do anything, for merely existing suffices.

However, I'd like to add that there can be a sudden satori/kensho indeed, although this should not be a goal (at least in our Soto tradition). If it happens, it's fine, but then it's time to move on and not get attached to such "peak experiences". If it does not happen, also fine.
Jundo has that nice metaphor of going on a hike and coming across an unexpected beautiful view along the way...

Anyway, too much said already, I am going to just sit now...

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Joyo]

Thank you Daitetsu, I like what you added

Gassho,
Joyo

[Erin]

Philosophy is like pulling teeth for me. I'd rather think about what's for dinner and does the cat box need scooped than try to figure out whether my waking reality is a dream or vice versa.

In all seriousness, going too far down that rabbit hole can be hurtful, to yourself for missing out on the beauty and love around you, and to others, who can't connect with you because your head is too much in the clouds to see what's in front of you.

[Daiyo]

You're so right Erin.
In my own experience, I have missed a lot of that love by keeping introspective.

If I had learn to drop and let go earlier...

Ok, maybe I need to drop that sorrow too and just let go.

Gassho,
Walter.

[Shokai]

Could it be that we need to experience those missed opportunities to be where we are at this moment. You are what you think and it is never too late to change your mind.
Shall we sit with that? ☺

gassho, Shokai, still learning the way and knowing nothing.

[Jundo]

I wouldn't pay attention to realizing or expecting anything. Just practice by sitting and living. .... it happens gradually and in many ways, it is a process that is slow and unnoticed.

That's good advice!

By just sitting we actualize buddha-nature - no need to attain or do anything, for merely existing suffices.

However, I'd like to add that there can be a sudden satori/kensho indeed, although this should not be a goal (at least in our Soto tradition). If it happens, it's fine, but then it's time to move on and not get attached to such "peak experiences". If it does not happen, also fine. Jundo has that nice metaphor of going on a hike and coming across an unexpected beautiful view along the way...

I would say you both speak Wisdom to Walter's question. In this Practice, sitting Shikantaza, one will find that the hard borders and frictions between self and the world soften ... and the sense of Wholeness Rightness Intraflowing (my way of expressing the horribly misleading term "Emptiness") increases ... perhaps some days more than others, but decidedly over time. It may be subtle, we may barely notice the process ... but such gets right to the marrow.

And once in awhile maybe, for some folks, just like our Rinzai brethren pushing through the "MU!" Koan ... sometimes the walls and borders fully drop away, separation is no longer at issue, and all that remains is the Dance of Wholeness Rightness Intraflowing.

It is sometimes said that, if wearing robes and walking through a waterfall, ones sleeves will become soaking wet. But, walking through a mist over time, slowly one's sleeves become just as wet. Same difference!

But, in both the Soto and Rinzai way, whether big KENSHO or subtle penetration right to the bone ... what matters is not that, but how one thereupon gets on with living in this seemingly so often "broken-wrong-divided" world employing such Wisdom and Insight.

Philosophy is like pulling teeth for me. I'd rather think about what's for dinner and does the cat box need scooped than try to figure out whether my waking reality is a dream or vice versa.

Actually, it is not really "philosophy" in an armchair, intellectual sense ... but a new way of seeing the world as more whole, balanced, interconnected. But, you are right, for us Soto folks, we come to see that cleaning the cat box --IS-- as much that Wholeness Rightness Intraflowing Kensho as anything ... it is ALL KENSHO! I sometimes write the below (if you have been around this Sangha awhile, you have heard it all before! )

Gassho, Jundo


=====================

Dogen tended to speak of "Enlightenment" ... not as some momentary experience to attain ... but as "Practice-Enlightenment", emphasizing that how we make Buddha Wisdom and Compassion manifest in our actual words, thoughts and deeds in this life is the real "Kensho".

These momentary Kensho [or other] experiences can be light and deep and beyond light or deep. This can be much more profound and enveloping than a sensation of "I" feeling oneness or awe. HOWEVER, that does not matter because, generally in Soto, we consider all such experiences as passing scenery ... just a visit to the wonders of the Grand Canyon. One cannot stay there, as lovely as it is. Nice and educational place to visit ... would not, should not, could not truly live there. One can even live perfectly well never having visited the vast Canyon at all. The most important thing is to get on the bus, get on with the trip, get on with life from there. In our Soto Way, the WHOLE TRIP is Enlightenment when realized as such (that is the True "Kensho"!) ... not some momentary stop or passing scene or some final destination .

The following is important, so BOLDFACE and UNDERLINE ...

Different folks approach and define all this in their own way. In our Soto View, some folks way way way overvalue an experience of timelessly momentary "Kensho" ... as the be all and end all (beyond being or ending) of "Enlightenment" ... and chase after it like some gold ring on the merry go round. For Soto folks, that is like missing the point of the trip. For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

In a nutshell, a wondrous and important experience perhaps, but in "Zen Enlightenment" one comes to realize that even this ordinary, dusty, confining, sometimes joyous and sometimes ugly world is just as miraculous, wondrous, and "holy" as anything like that. The "Grand Canyon" or "Top of Mt. Everest" is a wonderful place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there. Scratching one's nose, taking out the trash, feeding the baby ... when we come to perceive this world as such ... is all as much the "Buddhaland" as anything with rainbow colored trees and cotton candy castles in the sky. In fact, the canyon vistas and the mountain top are ever before your eyes even now ... in the trash, your nose, in the hungry baby [(even in Mara!)]... although maybe hard to see. The most "boring and ordinary, beautiful or ugly" of this world is Extraordinary and Beautiful when properly understood.

In the violence, ugliness, anger, greed and clutching, divisive thoughts and frictions of the world, this fact can be hidden, so hard to see. Thus, a key aspect of our Practice is to see and live free of the violence, anger, greed, clutching and all the rest to see this fact more clearly ... and even to realize it was there all along, though so hidden by the storm.

Most folks just don't pierce that fact and are lost in delusion about the Nature of the trip. Most sentient being "passengers" on this ride just don't realize that, feeling homesick, car sick, separated from all the other passengers, revolted or attracted to what they see ... filling the whole trip with thoughts of greed and anger, spoiling the journey, making a mess of the bus and harming themselves and the other riders, unhappy until they get to the "promised destination" somewhere down the road. They may even get to the Grand Canyon, snap a picture and buy a sovenier, then wonder "is that all it is"?

I once wrote this on such Kensho (Seeing One's Nature) experiences ...

For Kensho is, in fact, special as special ever has been or could be … a sacred jewel, key to the path, life’s vitality realized … nothing other than special!

Yet Kensho is “nothing special” in that each and all facets of this life-world-self, bar none, are vital, sacred, a unique treasure – and every step of the path is central to the path. The “ordinary and mundane” is never ordinary. Every moment and any encounter, each breeze and blade of grass is special, sacred, a jewel in Indra’s Net. Thus, I do not mean to lower the import of Kensho in the least, but just to RAISE UP all of life, and every instant of practice, to one and the same par with Kensho, for such is the wholeness, intimacy, unity that is KENSHO’d in KENSHO.
.
Realizing that fact – that the most “ordinary” is sacred and whole and unbroken – is at the heart of Kensho! Failing to see Kensho as extraordinary insight into the extra-ordinariness and sacredness of both the sacred and ordinary is not to see “Kensho.”

That is why many Soto folks, like Sawaki Roshi above, think "Kensho Schmensho" ... running after some timelessly momentary fireworky experience of "Kensho" is not True "Grocking the Nature" Buddha-Bus Kensho. He says ...

You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?
Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.
We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

The famous closing words of Chapter 32 of the Diamond Sutra, one of the most cherished texts in Zen Buddhism (even the Zen folks who "burn all the texts" make sure to grock the Diamond Sutra first before burning! )


Buddha continued:

"Subhuti, how can one explain this Sutra to others without holding in mind any arbitrary conception of forms or phenomena or spiritual truths? It can only be done, Subhuti, by keeping the mind in perfect tranquility and free from any attachment to appearances."

"So I say to you -
This is how to contemplate our conditioned existence in this fleeting world:"

"Like a tiny drop of dew, or a bubble floating in a stream;
Like a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
Or a flickering lamp, an illusion, a phantom, or a dream."

"So is all conditioned existence to be seen."

Thus spoke Buddha.

http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond_sutra_text/page32.html

[Mp]

whether big KENSHO or subtle penetration right to the bone ... what matters is not that, but how one thereupon gets on with living in this seemingly so often "broken-wrong-divided" world employing such Wisdom and Insight.

The most "boring and ordinary, beautiful or ugly" of this world is Extraordinary and Beautiful when properly understood.

Thank you for these words Jundo, this was the view I was trying to express.

Gassho
Shingen

[Jinyo]

I would say you both speak Wisdom to Walter's question. In this Practice, sitting Shikantaza, one will find that the hard borders and frictions between self and the world soften ... and the sense of Wholeness Rightness Intraflowing (my way of expressing the horribly misleading term "Emptiness") increases ... perhaps some days more than others, but decidedly over time. It may be subtle, we may barely notice the process ... but such gets right to the marrow.

Thank you Jundo - I find those words very helpful. Like wise with the quote from the Diamond Sutra.

I think there are many words/phrases that confuse newbies to Zen - I still get flumaxed when I think 'form is emptiness and emptiness is form' !

It may be that this has already been done and I've missed the link - but it would be great if some of these words/phrases were gathered together within one thread with your teachings/clarifications.

Or maybe that book you were planning to write

Gassho

Willow

[Jika]

Or maybe that book you were planning to write

This, indeed, would save me an awful lot of copy-pasting.

But maybe a better teaching for me, to come across the jaw dropping stuff unexpectedly, than to open a book with expectations.

Thanks to all.

Gassho,
Danny

[Ugrok]

Hello willow !

On Upaya online zen center, there is a series of podcast by John Dunne (who is professor in Emery University i believe - and also a buddhist) about "emptiness is form and form is emptiness". They are really interesting, funny, and might help you "understand" what it means. He also has a series of talks about Nagarjuna, a buddhist monk who wrote a lot about "emptiness is form and form is emptiness". It's really good because John Dunne is linking it to everyday life and to practice. Here is the list of Dunne's talks :

https://www.upaya.org/dharmatalks/speaker/?by=John+Dunne

I listened to "Fearlessness and the heart sutra", which deals with the fear of "nothing", and i am currently listening the series "Revealing Nagarjuna". It's really good and helps a lot with this part of the heart sutra.

Of course, ultimately i guess it's not something you can understand logically or conceptually. But, as Dunne says, language and thinking can help and be a tool for understanding.

[Kokuu]

Philosophy is like pulling teeth for me. I'd rather think about what's for dinner and does the cat box need scooped than try to figure out whether my waking reality is a dream or vice versa.

In all seriousness, going too far down that rabbit hole can be hurtful, to yourself for missing out on the beauty and love around you, and to others, who can't connect with you because your head is too much in the clouds to see what's in front of you.