How do we know…

[Jundo]

No one experiences the world in the same way as you do.

Gassho,

Kirk

This is true.

But nor is there quite the "you" and "world" as you think you are experiencing.

Gassho, J

[Ugrok]

You're right, and count me in the wagon of those who ask questions all the time, ahah !

Jundo, thanks for the detailed answer. But if i understand correctly, it answers the question "what is our relation to reality", not the initial question, which is "how do we know that dreams are not reality and reality not a dream". I don't know if it's really the same question !

[Kyonin]

How do we know that what we consider to be our waking life is not a dream? And that our dreams are not reality?

We don't know yet and there's no way to know so far.

But who cares?

All we have is this reality and lot of work ahead to end suffering.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Jundo]

All we have is this reality and lot of work ahead to end suffering.

Yes, even if this is a "dream", our vow is to end the suffering of sentient beings. Of course, part of that ending involves teaching the "sentient beings" that both they, and their suffering and experience as separate selves in conflict with the rest of the world, is something of a dream! Part of "saving the sentient beings" is enlightening them to the fact that there are no "sentient beings" in need of saving!

But, be that as it may, in this world ... dream or not ... there are sentient beings suffering also from a lack of food, shelter, physical safety and all the rest. Our dream duty is to provide these dream sentient beings with dream food etc. to feed their dream hunger ... because, dream or not, they are really hungry!!

Gassho, J

[Rich]

That's not something I need to have an answer for because it would only confuse my not knowing.

Kind regards. /\

[jeff_u]

Two Views

Beyond this point, Theravada Buddhism and Mahayana Buddhism differ on how anatman is understood. In fact, more than anything else it is the different understanding of self that defines and separates the two schools.

Very basically, Theravada considers anatman to mean that an individual's ego or personality is a fetter and delusion. Once freed of this delusion, the individual may enjoy the bliss of Nirvana.

Jundo, I have attended a few Theravedan retreats and have never been comfortable with their (broad generalization, sorry) concept of self/no-self, especially as it relates to merit and lay practice. So would you characterize the typical Theravedan concept of anatman as a rejection of the egotistical aspects of self, that which arises from say the five skhadas, but not necessarily a complete rejection of atman itself, or something atman-like? Something that is truly separate? I guess I'm just looking at this through the Mahayana/shunyata lens, but I don't think I quite realized how large a gulf that is... it seems somewhat mind-blowing how different these two philosophies can manifest in practice.

Sorry, I hope I'm not creating unnecessary divisiveness. I'm just very curious about these differences. Thank you.

Gassho,
Jeff

[Jundo]

That's not something I need to have an answer for because it would only confuse my not knowing.

Kind regards. /\

The next time you get dream-hit by a dream hockey puck in the dream kidneys remember that it is only an incredible mental simulation created in the brain that fools you to the fact that you, the puck, the opposing team and the whole world are separate!

Gassho, Jundo

PS - A picture of Rich, third from right in front row (US National Hockey Championship Team, Over 65 Division!) ...

[Joyo]

Are they not the same? Reality is but a dream until we see it as it is?

Gassho
Shingen

I agree. To see through our reality/dream and see what really is. The mental theater is so wonderful at making up all kinds of dreams, fantasies, and wrong perceptions. To practice shikantaza, on and off the cushion, now here is a way to move beyond all that, dropping the dream and at least get a glimpse of what really is.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Joyo]

And, Jundo, thank you very much for your comments. It certainly has given me some interesting stuff to think about in regards to my Ango goals.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Jundo]

Jundo, I have attended a few Theravedan retreats and have never been comfortable with their (broad generalization, sorry) concept of self/no-self, especially as it relates to merit and lay practice. So would you characterize the typical Theravedan concept of anatman as a rejection of the egotistical aspects of self, that which arises from say the five skhadas, but not necessarily a complete rejection of atman itself, or something atman-like? Something that is truly separate? I guess I'm just looking at this through the Mahayana/shunyata lens, but I don't think I quite realized how large a gulf that is... it seems somewhat mind-blowing how different these two philosophies can manifest in practice.

Sorry, I hope I'm not creating unnecessary divisiveness. I'm just very curious about these differences. Thank you.

Gassho,
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I am not a Theravadan Practitioner, so hard to comment. However, in fact, I have never found the difference in typical Theravada-Mahayana Teachings on "no self" so wide. Both basically agree that the Five Skandhas ("Outside" Form, Sensation, Perception, Mental formations, Consciousness) created a misleading self-image of a "separate self" that we have to get past. Mahayana went a bit further and said all the things of the "outside" world too ... not just the subjective self (which seems to be the central focus of the Theravada teachings) ... are also not quite there as we see them, but all is actually a big, flowing whole dance of Emptiness (that, by the way, is really not quite "empty" as the name implies).

There was also a tendency in the Mahayana, more than the Theravada, to say that the point of practice is not so much to escape from this "no self" delusion (and to make a final escape from the whole cycle of birth in this world), but to see through it ... experience that big, flowing whole dance of Emptiness ... and thereby one could escape it right in this life. Kind of a "cake and eat it too" escape, in which we can live in the prison of this Samsara world, realize that the prison is rather a mental prison, and "escape" from the prison ... all while continuing to live in the prison, getting on with our lives! (To be specific: We are Bodhisattvas who vow to stay in the world to rescue all those other suffering sentient beings ... and not make our escape until they are rescued ... but nonetheless, while in this world we Bodhisattvas can still see through the whole semi-fictional show, thereby being liberated from it even while still stuck in it!).

Anyway, even many Theravada commentators say that it is misleading to say that "no self" means there is no "self" for daily purposes. Of course there is! (I mean, try telling the tax office that, since you do not really "exist" you owe no income tax this year! ).

Dogen even seemed to imply that we and every blade of grass and all phenomena are so "dreamlike", that we actually swing around the other way and each become a sacred reality, as real as real can be! We are a dream so dreamy that we might also be called a real so really!

Gassho, Jundo

PS - One teacher asserts that the differences on some of these Teachings between Theravada and Mahayana is really a matter of semantics and emphasis ...

Emptiness in Theravada Buddhism
Through Tricycle Magazine someone asked Gil Fronsdal:


Question: In the Mahayana schools, such as Zen, emptiness, or the realization of emptiness seems to be an important part of the path, less so in the Theravada tradition, am I mistaken? And having trained in both traditions how do you reconcile the two?


Gil’s response:

Emptiness is as important in the Theravada tradition as it is in the Mahayana. From the earliest times, Theravada Buddhism has viewed emptiness as one of the important doors to liberation. Two key Theravada sutras are devoted to emptiness: the Greater Discourse on Emptiness and the Lesser Discourse on Emptiness.

When I was practicing in Burma, I gave a copy of the Heart Sutra to my Theravada meditation teacher. Ignoring the opening and closing, he was happy with the emptiness teaching in the core of the text. He gave a profound dharma talk on the Heart Sutra, saying that this insight is what Vipassana practice aims at.

Over the centuries, emptiness came to have a range of meanings within Buddhism. The greatest change in meaning was in the Mahayana tradition where some quite diverse teachings on emptiness emerged. Even so, the great Indian philosophers of the Mahayana wrote that the standard understanding of emptiness within the Mahayana and within the earlier Buddhist traditions is the same. It is not emptiness which differentiates these traditions.

Though emptiness is important in the Theravada tradition, it is usually not taught as often as in the Mahayana. This might lead some to assume it is absent in the Theravada. One reason it is not taught as often is that emptiness is seen as a liberating insight rather then a philosophical view one needs to understand intellectually. Theravada’s gradual approach to awakening, includes extensive teachings on the functioning of the mind and the foundational practices that allow for the deep penetrative insight into emptiness. Emptiness is sometimes not taught until the student is ready for it.

Another reason Theravada contains fewer teachings on emptiness is that this is not always labeled “emptiness.” For example, Theravada will teach that all things are insubstantial and without essence without calling this an emptiness teaching, even though it is. The frequency with which the Mahayana talks about emptiness is probably matched by the frequency with which the Theravada teaches impermanence and not-self; in practice, both traditions are often pointing to the same thing in these teachings.

A final reason may be that the goal of Theravada practice is not emptiness. The goal is liberation. Emptiness is a means to liberation. While liberation comes with a deep understanding of emptiness, emptiness is secondary to Awakening.

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.o...vada-buddhism/

[jeff_u]

Thank you Jundo, it seems I'm mistaking two signs in different languages both pointing to the same road--same, different all good. I must also confess that after reading Shravasti Dhammika's critique I've been retroactively judging some of my own Theravedan experiences a bit harshly (bandwagoneering I guess). Thank you for keeping me on the road. Deep bows.

Gassho,
Jeff

[Daitetsu]

For me one of the cores of Buddhism is to awaken to the fact, that there is no separate/independent/permanent self.
To realise one is in a kind of dream. However, since one is caught in the dream (i.e. one is not able to escape the world of samsara) to make the best out of it for oneself and everyone else (different, but not separate - one). Kind of "lucid living" (as an analogy to a lucid dream, i.e. when one is suddenly aware that one is dreaming).

IMHO a lot of dukkha arises from our clinging to our sensation of an independent self, i.e. our illusion to be separate from everything else that exists. Like an actor who is so much immersed in his play that he loses himself and takes it for real.
So we want to impress others, are proud of accomplishments, dislike things and people, are insecure, etc.

When one realizes that one is everything that exists, that separateness is an illusion, that this whole life is just one funny, tragic, crazy, beautiful firework (in fact the biggest show there is), then there is a chance for freedom to fully accept ones role in this far out play.

Just my two dream cents...

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Daiyo]

And when/how does one "realize" it?
I mean the absence of separation.

For now I'm just running on faith, on belief, like expecting to experience that insight.
Faith or belief on the Buddha, the teachers, the teachings.
But no experience yet.

Must I sit more, and think less maybe?


Gassho,
Walter

[Rich]

Hi Jundo, tell that to my aching elbow I hit on the glass. I really should send you an autographed copy of that pic -) 😊😁😉

Kind regards. /\

[Nindo]

Row, row, row your boat,
Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.


Gassho,

Daitetsu

This is the best thing said in the whole thread.