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  • Jinyo
    Member
    • Jan 2012
    • 1957

    #46
    Originally posted by Ugrok
    Hello willow !

    On Upaya online zen center, there is a series of podcast by John Dunne (who is professor in Emery University i believe - and also a buddhist) about "emptiness is form and form is emptiness". They are really interesting, funny, and might help you "understand" what it means. He also has a series of talks about Nagarjuna, a buddhist monk who wrote a lot about "emptiness is form and form is emptiness". It's really good because John Dunne is linking it to everyday life and to practice. Here is the list of Dunne's talks :



    I listened to "Fearlessness and the heart sutra", which deals with the fear of "nothing", and i am currently listening the series "Revealing Nagarjuna". It's really good and helps a lot with this part of the heart sutra.

    Of course, ultimately i guess it's not something you can understand logically or conceptually. But, as Dunne says, language and thinking can help and be a tool for understanding.
    Thank you - I will have a look.

    and yes - moving beyond a conceptual grasp is the hard part - to feel it in the heart beyond a mere glimpse from time to time.

    Gassho

    Willow

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    • Erin
      Member
      • Aug 2014
      • 23

      #47
      Originally posted by walter
      Ok, maybe I need to drop that sorrow too and just let go.
      Walter - I just wanted to say how much I feel these words. Here's a big hug for ourselves and our sorrow, too.

      Jundo - thank you for the teachings.

      Comment

      • Daiyo
        Member
        • Jul 2014
        • 819

        #48
        Gassho.
        Gassho,Walter

        Comment

        • Myoku
          Member
          • Jul 2010
          • 1491

          #49
          After re-reading the Muchu setsumu chapter I think I would like to ask if I maybe misunderstood something,

          Originally posted by Jundo
          Dogen said that we live in a dream within a dream
          This struck me from the moment I read it, because it sounds somewhat recursive, a dream within a dream. How I understand Muchu setsumu however, I think Dogen speaks about "teaching a dream within a dream" as teaching THIS VERY AND ONLY DREAM while we are in THIS VERY AND ONLY DREAM, so no recursion just teaching the only "thing" that is there: this one and only dream we all are. Did I go astray ?

          Gassho
          Myoku

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40943

            #50
            Originally posted by Myoku
            After re-reading the Muchu setsumu chapter I think I would like to ask if I maybe misunderstood something,



            This struck me from the moment I read it, because it sounds somewhat recursive, a dream within a dream. How I understand Muchu setsumu however, I think Dogen speaks about "teaching a dream within a dream" as teaching THIS VERY AND ONLY DREAM while we are in THIS VERY AND ONLY DREAM, so no recursion just teaching the only "thing" that is there: this one and only dream we all are. Did I go astray ?

            Gassho
            Myoku
            Depends which dream you are dreaming.

            WAKE UP!

            Gassho, J
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Myoku
              Member
              • Jul 2010
              • 1491

              #51
              Thank you Jundo,
              as you sometimes say there is a time to discuss and a time to not discuss. I thought this might be an interesting aspect of the teaching, worth looking at, but its ok to not discuss it.
              Gassho
              Myoku

              Comment

              • Jika
                Member
                • Jun 2014
                • 1337

                #52
                How I understand Muchu setsumu
                I've come across this a few times now, and I've been wondering, what are all these satsumas (a small sort of orange) doing here?

                Oranges seem to be very important in Zen.

                Now wikipedia lectured me about the fruit production of the prefecture Satsuma.

                Unfortunately, I can not have orange

                All of Life is our Orange?

                Gassho,
                Danny
                治 Ji
                花 Ka

                Comment

                • Kyonin
                  Dharma Transmitted Priest
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 6748

                  #53
                  Hi guys,

                  Have been sitting with this mind bending topic for a few days now.

                  One of the biggest teachings for me is our effort to perceive reality though reality is boundless. This means a lot to me because I understand my relationship with the universe depends a lot of my senses, background, emotions and all the skandas. All at once.

                  Based on this, the mind labels, classifies, catalogs, judges and stores information that affects how we see the universe.

                  While in zazen, all of that washes away for very brief instant. A helicopter passes by and it's just that. A cup is a cup, with no stories attached to it. Pain in the knee is only that, with no suffering involved.

                  Things are just there. Happening. And it's all wondrous to witness and see it all coming together as one single chunk of cosmic stuff.

                  Is either that or that I haven't yet fully woken up. Too early

                  Gassho,

                  Kyonin
                  Hondō Kyōnin
                  奔道 協忍

                  Comment

                  • Myoku
                    Member
                    • Jul 2010
                    • 1491

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Danny B
                    ...
                    Unfortunately, I can not have orange

                    All of Life is our Orange?
                    Not sure if you made a joke here, Danny, however Muchu setsumu is a chapter in Dogens Shobogenzo
                    Gassho
                    Moyko

                    Comment

                    • Guest

                      #55


                      Gassho
                      Bobby

                      Comment

                      • Jika
                        Member
                        • Jun 2014
                        • 1337

                        #56
                        Myoko, thank you for explaining.

                        I was joking at my own phonetic association, caused by this thread (the video clip):


                        So life can be layers of dreams, or as tangible as a tangerine. I guess.

                        Gassho,
                        Danny
                        治 Ji
                        花 Ka

                        Comment

                        • dharmasponge
                          Member
                          • Oct 2013
                          • 278

                          #57
                          The Tibetans have this wrapped up. All phenomena is a projection of mind. Mind is a projection of mind as is Emptiness and Dogen, you and me...so is enlightenment and suffering. See Chandrakirti and Shantideva. _/|\_
                          Sat today

                          Comment

                          • Myoku
                            Member
                            • Jul 2010
                            • 1491

                            #58
                            Originally posted by dharmasponge
                            The Tibetans have this wrapped up. All phenomena is a projection of mind. Mind is a projection of mind as is Emptiness and Dogen, you and me...so is enlightenment and suffering. See Chandrakirti and Shantideva. _/|\_
                            Though I believe this somewhat is nicely wrapped up, its still only one side of the no-sided coin. I believe even if its all projections there is suffering and compassion in this world. Just 2c of a deluded guy.
                            Gassho
                            Myoku

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