No Rebirth or Reincarnation?

[dharmasponge]

Just a quick question.

I heard Brad Warner say that Dogen didn't believe in any form of Reincarnation or Rebirth....

...isn't that like a Christian not believing in the Resurrection?

It renders Buddhism useless as there are no future consequences or explanations for current circumstances?

Thanks,

Tony...

[Jundo]

Hi Tony,

First, Dogen most assuredly did believe in some form of post-mortem rebirth, as most Buddhists of the 13th Century (and many Traditional Buddhists today) did. His writings in Shobogenzo and elsewhere have enough references to traditional views of Karma, that there is little doubt. On the other hand, Zen has always had an emphasis on what is in this moment, and so the emphasis on later lives was always rather ambiguous.

I am a skeptic on very mechanical views of rebirth or, better said, it is not vital to my Practice. As I usually say ...

My attitude, and that of many other Buddhist teachers, is that ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

Frankly, it is not so important to me if Dogen, most folks for 2000 years and the Buddha himself believed in literal views of post-mortem rebirth. They could all be wrong on some things, although the teachings they were right about are more than enough.

I believe in future consequences, even if just in this life. As I said above, I see people make hells for themselves ... and for those around them ... in this life through their greed, anger and ignorance. Potential future hells aside, that is enough too.

Gassho, Jundo

[Kokuu]

Tony

Would you practice any differently if there is or isn't rebirth?

In my experience, Zen doesn't really devote much time to worrying about karmic causes or results in other lifetimes. Things arise, things fall away. If you do the same thing again and again you are likely to get the same result but that's about as far as it goes. Plenty to see to in the present moment without fixating on hypotheticals.

Gassho
Andy

[dharmasponge]

Thanks Jundo, that's reassuring!

Kokuu, interesting question.

I'm not sure. I can't see how I would not be concerned re karmic consequences?? I am creating my future in every second. This implies a huge responsibility to both my future wellbeing and those of others.

Are you not concerned about how your current actions may affect others if not yourself?

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[Kokuu]

Are you not concerned about how your current actions may affect others if not yourself?

Yes, of course. But following the precepts seems the best way of living whether or not there is rebirth.

Gassho
Andy

[dharmasponge]

I guess I'm a believer :-) A mental continuum makes most sense to me in terms of why good things happen to bad people and the suffering children experience. Consequently I have developed an healthy concern for future lives in much the same way as I have a concern for who I may be in the future of this life.

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[Myosha]

Hello,

Am blessed in birth/rebirth every moment. A finger-snap takes 65 moments.

If you'd like to know every moment of a day snap your fingers 98,463,077 times in row.

There's only 6,400,099,980 moments a day. Can't waste One.^^


Gassho,
Myosha

[Entai]

YOL....um... I have no idea. It's nice to wake up in the morning though.

Gassho, Entai

[Rich]

The future is a complete fabrication of your mind. What you do right now is most important and precepts make a lot of sense as a guide if you need guidance. I think rebirth and reincarnation is an explanation of something unknowable because we can't stand not knowing.



Kind regards. /\

[Taigu]

Excellent Rich.

Thank you

Taigu

[Mp]

I think rebirth and reincarnation is an explanation of something unknowable because we can't stand not knowing.

Wonderful point Rich! =)

To me rebirth and reincarnation mean nothing if I am not living right here right now. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[senryu]

Maybe I am not in the right path, but when I am experiencing an important lost or I am sharing the personal catastrophe of someone, to know about the dependant origination and transmigration give me some extra peace (I guess at the end is a faith topic). That not means that I don´t keep my training or that don´t fight when is needed (like samurais) but to know that there is another chance after it, give me an additional shelter against the death (maybe like samurais, again :-D).
Gassho
Senryu

[Jundo]

I guess I'm a believer :-) A mental continuum makes most sense to me in terms of why good things happen to bad people and the suffering children experience.

Yes, that would be one explanation as to why children and other seeming innocents suffer. So would saying it is "God's Mysterious Plan" or simply that it is the ways of nature or simple "wrong place, wrong time" bad luck. I am open to all possibilities ... and whatever the case, let us work right here and now to build a world where fewer children and innocents suffer!

By the way, remember that in traditional Buddhism, "rebirth" was not looked at as a positive thing, but something to be ESCAPED! Even a "good rebirth" was not the point, and was considered a kind of honey trap. Buddha sought to get off the wheel of birth-death completely!

Our way also allows us a Viewless View in which there are no "separate children" to suffer, nothing lacking and nothing to be fixed from that start. Nonetheless, that "Viewless View" do not also prevent us from simultaneously working right here and now to fix what needs fixing, helping the children (whether like a dream of not). So, get moving and lend a hand!

Here is an old thread on basic Karma (part of our "'BIG' Questions" series) ... It contains this, a view of Karmic Causation that leaves me skeptical: Did all those innocent people carry some debt from past lives?

[O]n the question of why "bad things happen to good people" and such ... one Buddhist view has always been "because of their 'bad' past Karma". For example, this explanation of why so many folks died in the great Tsunami a few years ago ...

To Ananda Guruge, former Sri Lankan ambassador to the United States who teaches at the Buddhist-affiliated University of the West in Rosemead, the Buddhist doctrine of karmic law, not random chance, determines who lives and dies in any disaster. The region suffered collective bad karma, he says, perhaps prompted by oppression, unjust war or other negative actions that invited the calamity.

In Sri Lanka and Thailand, both majority Buddhist countries hit by the tsunami, people tend to believe that those who perished were paying the price of accumulated demerits in this life or past ones, Guruge said, while the survivors were reaping rewards.

“Buddhist doctrine makes people responsible for their own fate,” said Guruge, whose own family in Sri Lanka largely survived. ...

But he said such doctrines of cause and effect provide solace by empowering people to take corrective action. By doing good deeds, he said, people can improve their own futures and transfer their merits to deceased loved ones to help bring them a better rebirth.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan/08/local/me-beliefs8

However, another Buddhist view is that there is a perspective by which we can drop all thought of birth, death, Tsunami and victims, suffering and such. By that view, there are no "bad things" to happen to "good people" ... and no "people, for all is empty! This is a view that I often teach when asked about these questions.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6102-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VI-%28Karma%29

I tend to think that so many people were swept up in the Tsunami because, there days, so many millions of people are living close to the short ... an unprecedented number in history. If one is going to build one's home next to a volcano, then one should not be surprised when once in awhile the volcano erupts! So too with many aspects of life.

We had another thread yesterday that touched on children who suffer, many of whom manifest a tremendous Wisdom toward their condition ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12378-Blue-Sky-Clouded-Mind&p=129624&viewfull=1#post129624

I am rather skeptical in my beliefs and the flavor of Buddhism I offer here at Treeleaf, but there is no need to feel that one's own ways or practice or understanding are superior (or inferior) to another. Many Buddhists enter and walk the Path through images of heavens, hells, literal rebirth and views of Karma and the like. Many Christians and others speak of heaven and hell. It may be so (and the skeptic's suppositions may be wrong) and, even more importantly, such "superstitious" Beliefs may be the Path and Doorway right for such person. To each their own Path.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - I very much care for these three poems on life-and-death by Kosho Uchiyama Roshi (of "Opening The Hand of Thought", the heir of Kodo Sawaki Roshi). Uchiyama Roshi lived with tuberculosis for over 50 years, and finally succumbed to the disease, so faced all head on. These poems were written by Uchiyama when he was in his 70's ... are the very same non-perspective on life-and-death discussed in this Thread ...

Life-and-Death
Water isn't formed by being ladled into a bucket
Simply the water of the whole Universe has been ladled into a bucket
The water does not disappear because it has been scattered over the ground
It is only that the water of the whole Universe has been emptied into the whole Universe
Life is not born because a person is born
The life of the whole Universe has been ladled into the hardened "idea" called "I"
Life does not disappear because a person dies
Simply, the life of the whole Universe has been poured out of this hardened "idea" of "I" back into the universe

Just Live, Just Die
The Reality prior to the division into two
Thinking it to be so, or not thinking it to be so
Believing it to be so, or not believing it to be so
Existence-nonexistence, life-death
Truth-falsehood, delusion-enlightenment
Self-others, happiness-unhappiness
We live and die within the profundity of Reality
Whatever we encounter is buddha-life
This present Reality is buddha-life
Just living, just dying---within no life or death

Samadhi of the Treasury of the Radiant Light
Though poor, never poor
Though sick, never sick,
Though aging, never aging
Though dying, never dying
Reality prior to division---
Herein lies unlimited depth

[dharmasponge]

Thanks Jundo and everyone.

I see Re- birth/incarnation as the minds continuum projecting another 'form'....swept along of course by dependent origination. Lots of conceptual wording I know, but that's the only way I know how to describe my understanding.

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[RichardH]

I honestly don't know first hand. It's possible to string stuff together but, like Rich says, it is a fabrication. Being born in a moment to moment way is an actual experience, like being born into another trip to the fridge, or being born as a defensive me-thing, but nothing is really being born, it's just confusion and tightening. i don't know. Gassho Daizan


... the Alaya Vijnana idea that Ive been looking into is a working theory, but it feels shoehorned, like there was gap and someone created an entity to fill it. It doesn't feel natural or elegant.. IMHO.