No Rebirth or Reincarnation?

[Jishin]

There is a saying that goes like this:

"If I have one leg in the past and one leg in the future then I'm pissing all over myself."

Gassho, Jishin


If you got one leg

The future is a complete fabrication of your mind. What you do right now is most important and precepts make a lot of sense as a guide if you need guidance. I think rebirth and reincarnation is an explanation of something unknowable because we can't stand not knowing.



Kind regards. /\

Wonderful, Rich. I liken the future to an imaginary friend or fable.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Rich UK]

Hi,

When I first started exploring Buddhist teachings and practice, some of the first areas I sought to understand were kamma and rebirth.

As was suggested with all the teachings, I explore them by seeing if they hold up to my experience of reality (I have never held with the idea of blind faith without scrutiny)

For me the explanation that was taught very clearly is to be found in the Pali Canon (Culakammavibhanga Sutts; III 202-6)

My understanding from this is that the situation you will reborn into is random, regardless of positive/negative actions in previous lives. However, the 'mind' you bring forward into that life and situation will be moulded by those previous actions.

At no point do I see reference to being born physically challenged or in bad circumstances as a result of kamma.

Terms such as being reborn to sickliness or ugliness are clearly defined as:

'....wherever he is reborn he is sickly. This is the way,student, that leads to sickliness, namely, one is given to injuring beings with the hand,with a clod, with a stick, or with a knife'

'....wherever he is reborn he is ugly. This is the way, student, that leads to ugliness, namely, one is of angry and irritable character'

As to holding the whole concept to scrutiny, I have. Without a long discourse explaining all my exploration of this, my own experience shows me that babies are born with character traits (often very different to their parents). Consciousness cannot be bound to a physical form which completely renews over ten years (look at a picture of yourself when you were seven!). Issues such as behaviour found in all sentient beings (migration etc) as yet unexplained satisfactorily by science other than to define it as instinct and consider it a closed matter. Personal experience, for example, I witnessed my baby niece becoming terrified the first time she saw someone unrealing a hose and it 'snaked' around on the grass. It seems she had gained this apparent fear of a snake from somewhere. And much much more..

In a broader aspect, I find it very interesting to see that Buddhist concepts are being confirmed by discoveries in fields such as quantum physics.

However, I've done much of this exploration of the 'big' concepts early on in my experience of Buddhism and , satisfied with what I've found, I don't feel the need to keep digging over them. As I learn new things, I just do what was taught and weigh them up against my own experience, then move on and try to concentrate on practice.

I feel very fortunate in that I've so far been able to continue without carrying doubts over the teachings of the Buddha. I'm not one for posting much but I hope my take may be of some interest

Gassho,

Rich

Hello,

Did I just see Super Mario 3D world in a Zen forum?

Now I want to buy a Wii U.

Gassho,

Chet

[Neika]

I for one tend to live as if rebirth/reincarnation were true, without the belief that they are. Maybe there is nothing after this life, maybe there is. Whatever happens, I believe that our lives/deaths are infinitely more complex, and subtle, than any of us really begin to understand and causation/rebirth/karma are a way for us to begin to comprehend that infinite interdependence. The energy of life has to go somewhere, even if all I do is feed worms with a decaying body, isn't that in some small way a part of life after I die? Personally, I think that there is more to it, but that none of us are capable of understanding it, so I practice my life as if the historic teachings on rebirth are true. It can't hurt me, and it can only make things better. It is a simple faith in the Dharma, that the teachings are true in their essence, even if all of the mechanics are not fully explainable.

Gassho, Neika

[Myosha]

Hello,

Chapter 26, Dogen Zenji, Shobogenzo.

A Fun Fact! Now.

Master has an awesome sense of humor.


Gassho,
Myosha

[Ongen]

Hello,

Am blessed in birth/rebirth every moment. A finger-snap takes 65 moments.

If you'd like to know every moment of a day snap your fingers 98,463,077 times in row.

There's only 6,400,099,980 moments a day. Can't waste One.^^


Gassho,
Myosha

I have been searching for this a few days ago... where does it come from? Who thought it up and what is it based on? Just out of curiosity... Isn't there just now?

For the rest, I don't know, and loving it

Gassho

Vincent

[Rick]

Excellent thread. I don't have any beliefs about what happens when we die. I don't know and don't really think about it all that much. I am trying to focus on my moment to moment experience. That being said, I am not at a very advanced stage in my development in this area. When I am completely honest with myself, I find that I am still at the Woody Allen stage (i.e., I'd prefer to achieve immortality by not dying).

Gassho,

Rick

[Jinyo]

Hi there,

interesting thread - thanks for your comprehensive input Jundo.

Gassho

Willow

There are a lot of reasons the Buddha may have propounded a faith in rebirth and karma. I tend to dismiss the ones based on the supposition that he was merely devising a system of morality regardless of truth. I can't think of a single instance (admittedly, my reading of scripture is far from comprehensive) where he knowingly lied. Whatever the truth of rebirth is, I think we can be fairly sure that the Buddha himself had a very firm faith or belief in its veracity. I also have a hard time believing that he simply kept the beliefs of his time because he shows a pattern of discarding practices and views that he felt were demonstrably wrong regardless of how conventionally held to they were at the time.

[TimF]

This thread is great! Again, the use of a tree to help provide a visual (both in sight and mind) to explain how we are one (and show how karma can affect beyond the body finally giving in) sits perfectly in me.

Gassho,
Tim

[Myosha]

Hello,

One Pearl / One Way: It all begins with an irritant.^^


Gassho,
Myosha

A very interesting thread.

Gassho, Kantai

[Meikyo]

Thank you very much for that Jundo. Lots to ponder there. I'm so glad and grateful that we can discuss stuff like this in a fruitful manner!

Much respect and Gassho

[Jundo]

The Buddha's emphasis on Karma/Rebirth was itself his attempt at a system (although largely inherited from earlier Indian beliefs prevalent during his age) to explain the happenstance of being born in the circumstances we are. Karma seeks to explain the happenstance of human birth despite the odds (and why things work out the way they do). I do not personally believe in many of the overly literal ancient systems of Karma, but as I have said, feel that certainly something is afoot. The Buddha spoke of the blind turtle ...

The story behind this reference is found in the parable of the blind turtle, which appears in the [Lotus Sutra and] Āgama Sutra. A blind turtle, whose life span is immeasurable kalpas, lives at the bottom of the sea. Once every one hundred years, it rises to the surface. There is only one log floating in the sea with a suitable hollow in it. Since the turtle is blind and the log is tossed about by the wind and waves, the likelihood of the turtle reaching the log is extremely remote. It is even rarer, says Shakyamuni, to be born a human being; having succeeded in doing so, one should use the opportunity to master the four noble truths and attain deliverance.

Gassho, A Fellow Winner in Life's Casino