No Rebirth or Reincarnation?

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 42331

    #61
    Hi Universal Lottery Winners!

    I was asked if I believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and "Survival of the Fittest" since I also posit that somehow the "dice may be loaded" to explain the "hyper-lucky" happenstance of each of us being born.

    The answer is that, yes, I am a Darwinian ... but I do not believe that such is the only way to look at things, or a complete description of what is going on.

    You know, one could imagine scenarios in which there is the appearance of random process in what is actually a fully or highly determined system. For example, a movie of dice rolling looks exactly like dice rolling to someone who does not realize they are watching a film. A computer program and a bit of animation could create the appearance of dice rolling randomly even though the program fully determined the outcome and sequence of each roll. The magnetized roulette wheel at Rocko's Casino looks highly random, although it is anything but. Nature may have ways (as yet unknown, although that does not mean that they cannot someday be known) to guide processes down certain directions over others.

    As I said, I personally believe that life in the universe is a lovely combination of necessity and freedom. I can think of several possible means or explanations for how Darwin's system could be right, yet our existence as who we are also something of a foregone conclusion. (That does not mean that any of these means and explanations are, in fact, what is going on. However, each is possible and, I would wager, eventually a mechanism in some way similar will someday be discovered).

    One is that the universe functions like some kind of computer program or natural process that wholly or partially guides evolution in certain directions, or wholly or partially limits potential outcomes.

    Another is something that Buddhists have been teaching so for 2500 years: Namely, that our experience of the world is wholly or partly like a dream or illusion of the mind in which more is possible that we know. In fact, life may be something like a "movie" or "video game" that we are all characters in, although we do not realize so.

    Another possibility is that the universe (or universes in a multiverse, as Buddhists have describe for millenia) is so incredibly vast that truly almost anything is possible. Because almost anything is possible in such a universe, when the particular circumstances and necessary factors come up to create your life then you experience it. For example, imagine that there was a playerpiano that hit every combination of notes randomly without any limitation. Eventually, given sufficient time, the piano would happen to play perfectly Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata" just by hit and miss. In like fashion, one might suppose that when the universe finally got around to your notes by hit and miss, "you" got played. You are like the "Moonlight Sonata", ringing out when your times has finally happened to come. (I actually do not care for this explanation, as it seems to explain better why there might be endless copies of Jundo in this poor universe popping up in various times and places, than why there is this particular Jundo ... the one Jundo this Jundo needs to be Jundo now ... in this particular time and place that I need to be me.)

    Anyway, my point is not that any of the foregoing are going to prove to be true, but merely that there could be many ways in which Evolution would appear to work, yet things are not all quite what they seem. There may be an additional, complementary mechanism at work which we may also someday discover working parallel to Evolution. I very much doubt that it will be much like the traditional image of "Karma", but it may yet exist to explain how our human lives seemingly beat all the odds to be here.

    As the Diamond Sutra reminds us ...

    So you should view this fleeting world --
    A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream,
    A flash of lightening in a summer cloud,
    A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.

    Gassho, J

    PS - Just for reference, to show that much of this kind of argument fits well with traditional Buddhist views ...


    Nagarjuna (1st-2nd cent. CE), one of the founding “fathers” of Mahayana Buddhism, in his Mahaprajñaparamitopadesa, gives the following explanation for the usefulness of the dream-simile:

    “A) There is no reality in a dream, and yet, while one dreams, one believes in the reality of the things
    one sees in the dream. After one has woken up one recognizes the falseness of the dream and laughs at
    oneself. Just so a man who is plunged into the dreamy state which results from his fettered [egocentric]
    existence, has a belief in things which do not exist. But when he has found the Path, then, at
    the moment of enlightenment, he understands that there is no reality in them and he laughs at himself.
    “B) A dreamer, by the force of his dream, sees a thing where there is nothing. Just so, a man, by the
    force of the dreamy state which results from ignorance, believes in the existence of all sorts of things
    which do not exist, such as “I” and “mine,” male and female, etc..
    C) In a dream one rejoices although
    there is nothing enjoyable, one is angry although there is nothing to annoy, one is frightened although
    there is nothing to frighten. So do the beings with regard to the things of the world.”[7]
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-25-2014, 04:27 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 42331

      #62
      The Buddha's emphasis on Karma/Rebirth was itself his attempt at a system (although largely inherited from earlier Indian beliefs prevalent during his age) to explain the happenstance of being born in the circumstances we are. Karma seeks to explain the happenstance of human birth despite the odds (and why things work out the way they do). I do not personally believe in many of the overly literal ancient systems of Karma, but as I have said, feel that certainly something is afoot. The Buddha spoke of the blind turtle ...

      The story behind this reference is found in the parable of the blind turtle, which appears in the [Lotus Sutra and] Āgama Sutra. A blind turtle, whose life span is immeasurable kalpas, lives at the bottom of the sea. Once every one hundred years, it rises to the surface. There is only one log floating in the sea with a suitable hollow in it. Since the turtle is blind and the log is tossed about by the wind and waves, the likelihood of the turtle reaching the log is extremely remote. It is even rarer, says Shakyamuni, to be born a human being; having succeeded in doing so, one should use the opportunity to master the four noble truths and attain deliverance.
      Gassho, A Fellow Winner in Life's Casino
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Meikyo
        Member
        • Jun 2014
        • 197

        #63
        Thank you very much for that Jundo. Lots to ponder there. I'm so glad and grateful that we can discuss stuff like this in a fruitful manner!

        Much respect and Gassho
        ~ Please remember that I am very fallible.

        Gassho
        Meikyo

        Comment

        • Kantai

          #64
          A very interesting thread.

          Gassho, Kantai

          Comment

          • Myosha
            Member
            • Mar 2013
            • 2974

            #65
            Hello,

            One Pearl / One Way: It all begins with an irritant.^^


            Gassho,
            Myosha
            "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

            Comment

            • TimF
              Member
              • Dec 2013
              • 174

              #66
              This thread is great! Again, the use of a tree to help provide a visual (both in sight and mind) to explain how we are one (and show how karma can affect beyond the body finally giving in) sits perfectly in me.

              Gassho,
              Tim
              "The moment has priority". ~ Bon Haeng

              Comment

              • Peacemouse

                #67
                There are a lot of reasons the Buddha may have propounded a faith in rebirth and karma. I tend to dismiss the ones based on the supposition that he was merely devising a system of morality regardless of truth. I can't think of a single instance (admittedly, my reading of scripture is far from comprehensive) where he knowingly lied. Whatever the truth of rebirth is, I think we can be fairly sure that the Buddha himself had a very firm faith or belief in its veracity. I also have a hard time believing that he simply kept the beliefs of his time because he shows a pattern of discarding practices and views that he felt were demonstrably wrong regardless of how conventionally held to they were at the time.

                Comment

                • Jinyo
                  Member
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 1956

                  #68
                  Hi there,

                  interesting thread - thanks for your comprehensive input Jundo.

                  Gassho

                  Willow

                  Comment

                  • Rick
                    Member
                    • Aug 2013
                    • 38

                    #69
                    Excellent thread. I don't have any beliefs about what happens when we die. I don't know and don't really think about it all that much. I am trying to focus on my moment to moment experience. That being said, I am not at a very advanced stage in my development in this area. When I am completely honest with myself, I find that I am still at the Woody Allen stage (i.e., I'd prefer to achieve immortality by not dying).

                    Gassho,

                    Rick
                    Last edited by Rick; 06-26-2014, 04:18 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Ongen
                      Member
                      • Jan 2014
                      • 785

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Myosha
                      Hello,

                      Am blessed in birth/rebirth every moment. A finger-snap takes 65 moments.

                      If you'd like to know every moment of a day snap your fingers 98,463,077 times in row.

                      There's only 6,400,099,980 moments a day. Can't waste One.^^


                      Gassho,
                      Myosha
                      I have been searching for this a few days ago... where does it come from? Who thought it up and what is it based on? Just out of curiosity... Isn't there just now?

                      For the rest, I don't know, and loving it

                      Gassho

                      Vincent
                      Ongen (音源) - Sound Source

                      Comment

                      • Myosha
                        Member
                        • Mar 2013
                        • 2974

                        #71
                        Hello,

                        Chapter 26, Dogen Zenji, Shobogenzo.

                        A Fun Fact! Now.

                        Master has an awesome sense of humor.


                        Gassho,
                        Myosha
                        "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

                        Comment

                        • Neika
                          Member
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 230

                          #72
                          I for one tend to live as if rebirth/reincarnation were true, without the belief that they are. Maybe there is nothing after this life, maybe there is. Whatever happens, I believe that our lives/deaths are infinitely more complex, and subtle, than any of us really begin to understand and causation/rebirth/karma are a way for us to begin to comprehend that infinite interdependence. The energy of life has to go somewhere, even if all I do is feed worms with a decaying body, isn't that in some small way a part of life after I die? Personally, I think that there is more to it, but that none of us are capable of understanding it, so I practice my life as if the historic teachings on rebirth are true. It can't hurt me, and it can only make things better. It is a simple faith in the Dharma, that the teachings are true in their essence, even if all of the mechanics are not fully explainable.

                          Gassho, Neika
                          Neika / Ian Adams

                          寧 Nei - Peaceful/Courteous
                          火 Ka - Fire

                          Look for Buddha outside your own mind, and Buddha becomes the devil. --Dogen

                          Comment

                          • Peacemouse

                            #73
                            Hello,

                            Did I just see Super Mario 3D world in a Zen forum?

                            Now I want to buy a Wii U.

                            Gassho,

                            Chet

                            Comment

                            • Rich UK
                              Member
                              • Jun 2014
                              • 3

                              #74
                              Hi,

                              When I first started exploring Buddhist teachings and practice, some of the first areas I sought to understand were kamma and rebirth.

                              As was suggested with all the teachings, I explore them by seeing if they hold up to my experience of reality (I have never held with the idea of blind faith without scrutiny)

                              For me the explanation that was taught very clearly is to be found in the Pali Canon (Culakammavibhanga Sutts; III 202-6)

                              My understanding from this is that the situation you will reborn into is random, regardless of positive/negative actions in previous lives. However, the 'mind' you bring forward into that life and situation will be moulded by those previous actions.

                              At no point do I see reference to being born physically challenged or in bad circumstances as a result of kamma.

                              Terms such as being reborn to sickliness or ugliness are clearly defined as:

                              '....wherever he is reborn he is sickly. This is the way,student, that leads to sickliness, namely, one is given to injuring beings with the hand,with a clod, with a stick, or with a knife'

                              '....wherever he is reborn he is ugly. This is the way, student, that leads to ugliness, namely, one is of angry and irritable character'

                              As to holding the whole concept to scrutiny, I have. Without a long discourse explaining all my exploration of this, my own experience shows me that babies are born with character traits (often very different to their parents). Consciousness cannot be bound to a physical form which completely renews over ten years (look at a picture of yourself when you were seven!). Issues such as behaviour found in all sentient beings (migration etc) as yet unexplained satisfactorily by science other than to define it as instinct and consider it a closed matter. Personal experience, for example, I witnessed my baby niece becoming terrified the first time she saw someone unrealing a hose and it 'snaked' around on the grass. It seems she had gained this apparent fear of a snake from somewhere. And much much more..

                              In a broader aspect, I find it very interesting to see that Buddhist concepts are being confirmed by discoveries in fields such as quantum physics.

                              However, I've done much of this exploration of the 'big' concepts early on in my experience of Buddhism and , satisfied with what I've found, I don't feel the need to keep digging over them. As I learn new things, I just do what was taught and weigh them up against my own experience, then move on and try to concentrate on practice.

                              I feel very fortunate in that I've so far been able to continue without carrying doubts over the teachings of the Buddha. I'm not one for posting much but I hope my take may be of some interest

                              Gassho,

                              Rich

                              Comment

                              • Joyo

                                #75
                                Originally posted by Rich
                                The future is a complete fabrication of your mind. What you do right now is most important and precepts make a lot of sense as a guide if you need guidance. I think rebirth and reincarnation is an explanation of something unknowable because we can't stand not knowing.



                                Kind regards. /\
                                Wonderful, Rich. I liken the future to an imaginary friend or fable.

                                Gassho,
                                Joyo

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