Blue Sky Clouded Mind

[alan.r]

You, me and clark should probably form an "allowing" group against Jundo and dosho's "letting go" group

Gassho,
Sam

I'm in and with you. And then our allowing group can allow the letting go group to join us even in the midst of our allowing of letting go. (I don't know - this is meant to be a Zen zinger but I can't pull them off like Jundo)

Assuming you can drag your lazy butt outa bed......

I barely made it today and was probably very close to where Daizan was, nodding off.

Pesky thoughts! I think most of us focus so much attention on thoughts because, for many years, those thoughts were what we thought of as "us". I think, therefore I am! Yes, indeed. But then we muck it up by believing that thoughts make us who we are. I think, therefore I am all these things I tell myself, which are affected by other people's thoughts in limitless combinations...and stuff. That isn't quite as catchy, now is it?

Right on, Dosho.

As long as you present pounds of flesh and crafted words, you don t practice the real thing.
When the real thing and only this sits you, then pounds of flesh and crafted words don't matter anymore.

The point is not "to get it" but to forget it.

Thank you Taigu. Shutting my trap. Sitting.

Gassho all.

[Jundo]

Yes, thanks Jundo. I've noticed this and this is what I was trying to get at above. There is nothing to do with thoughts! Nothing! We have nothing to do with them! All I really meant to express in my above comment is that there "seems" like there is something to do with thoughts because thoughts are always part of the equation of shikantaza (drop Thoughts; let Thoughts go; let the Clouds/Thoughts pass, etc) - but this is the difficulty we all get trapped in sometimes, focusing on "thoughts" as though they're somehow different from everything else, somehow not blue sky also, some the "most important" part of the shikantaza thing. It's like chasing after enlightenment/trying to let go of thoughts. For me, I sit with a great allowing, acceptance, and gratitude, and out of that, there is wholeness, thoughts and all.

Gassho

Yes, lovely. Sitting letting drift away, without tangling with thoughts (or however one says it) is vital.

Sitting as Buddha sitting Buddha ... Buddha Buddhaing Buddha ... Sitting Just Sitting as Wholeness, a Perfect Act ... is vital.

Both are parts of the Shikantaza "non-equation".

Pesky thoughts! I think most of us focus so much attention on thoughts because, for many years, those thoughts were what we thought of as "us". I think, therefore I am! Yes, indeed. But then we muck it up by believing that thoughts make us who we are. I think, therefore I am all these things I tell myself, which are affected by other people's thoughts in limitless combinations...and stuff. That isn't quite as catchy, now is it?

The brain is a marvelous creation, but it also causes a lot of pain and suffering. We wouldn't be anything without it...and yet we so easily think it is everything we are. I do not believe that to be so.

Yes, our thoughts and attitudes color the world.

I happened to catch a story about a woman who has a disease which led her to be bullied. She is billed as the "world's ugliest woman", but her attitude is beautiful.

Lizzie Velasquez, 25, of Austin, is one of three people in the world with an unknown condition that causes accelerated aging as well as fat loss from the face and body. She's never weighed more than 70 pounds. When she was in high school, she stumbled across a YouTube video with millions of views. It was titled "World's Ugliest Woman" and it was about her. In a TED talk earlier this year, Lizzie told the audience how the title affected her, but yet, she was determined to fight back. With that comes The Lizzie Project, an anti-bullying documentary that tells Lizzie's inspirational story. TED TALK HERE: [url ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c62Aqdlzvqk[/url]

That led me to watch a series of short films on other children born with all manner of serious "defects" and "deformities" (words by which we judge from our standards of beauty, health and "normalcy" ... though isn't each sentient being precious as they are?). Some of them seem to mentally handle their lives with a Wisdom that would put many adults to shame. I go each week to a school for kids with profound autism, down's syndrome and the like, which renders most of the kids beyond speech ... yet, boy, can they SMILE!! and find joy in the small activities of life (and frustrations too, like the rest of us).

One can see one's "problems" as "problems" or something more (another judgement, for each "problem" is also a Precious Jewel seen by Buddha's Eye). One can use one's state as a base to Teach what is real beauty, acceptance, Happiness.

Our Way of Shikantaza allows the Clarity and Illumination to shine ever through such seeming tragedy and ugliness, refracted like light through a Jewel.

(Of course, our way is never either/or ... and though each "defect" is simultaneously a "Precious Jewel" ... I so long for the day when we find a cure for so many of these "Precious Jewels" impacting kids. It is beautiful and tragic at once, and a "beauty" that I hope we can someday live without.)

Anyway, the Buddha and your Grandmother would say ... attitude and what we think (or non-think) makes all the difference.

For me, this is hard to articulate in words. If I am sitting openly and spaciously, just sitting, I am aware of the thoughts that arise and that awareness frees me to let go of the thoughts. Sometimes, I latch onto a thought and start chewing on it. In those moments, I am no longer sitting openly and spaciously, but I am not aware of that because I am letting the thought take over and intrude. But then something happens. I become aware that I have latched on, that I am grinding my gears, and in that moment of awareness, I can let go of the thought and return to just sitting. So, for me at least, as soon as I become aware of my thinking, I stop thinking. Sounds like complete nonsense, but words fail me here.

Gassho,
Juki

Thank you all, great thread. Nothing to add, just reiterating that the sky is always clear, even when it's cloudy, and that we see this when we feel no need to look at anything else, accepting the wholeness of the sky that neither comes nor goes. Unless its raining, perfectly all right to use an umbrella and see that even the rain is clear.

Gassho, Foolish John

Lovely! Lovely!

So many other wise voices here too ...

Gassho, J

[Mp]

Some wonderful responses, thank you everyone, I have enjoyed reading this thread. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Jishin]

Blue Sky Clouded Mind

Nice thread. One Life to live and some questions get so exhausting. I just sit with back straight. That's all.

Gassho, Jishin

[Ishin]

Sitting is simple, folks.
Although its depth is beyond description, it is instantly available.
Thoughts? They will never stop and thinking about thoughts is a good way to get lost...in them.
It is funny to see how our habits and conditioning creep in our practice and we sit here as capitalist animals, trying to get better, make it work, control it, get something out of it. We draw maps and describe steps and stages, out if the boundless we scoop a bit of dust and claim it is our own or we stand helpless wanting to get an explanation.

The bottom line: shikantaza is useless and so are we.

The joy of being nothing...

Gassho

T.

Thanks Taigu
I guess as a newbie I am trying to get it. However, I am not really trying to "gain" as much as I want to make sure I am playing baseball with a baseball and not a football. I can't be doing shikantaza uselessly, if I am not doing shikantaza. But in "getting" it, I will definitely not try to make something of it.
Gassho
C

[Dosho]

Clark,

Read through Taigu's message again because I don't think you were really listening!

If you sat for 10 years "playing baseball" and then found out you had been playing with a football, what would it matter?

Yes, we sit with no thought of gain, but I would be shocked if after sitting that long you had not changed at all!

It was only after I dropped ALL THOUGHT of gaining that I truly gained anything and I can tell you that if nothing had changed after 7 years of sitting then I doubt I would be here right now.

As Jundo often says, if you have no thought of change, that is a really BIG change!

This is as plain as I can say it: DROP EVERYTHING. Let me say that again. DROP. EVERY. THING.

Let it go...then you'll discover there was never anything there in the first place.

Gassho,
Dosho

P.S. Just in case you missed it: DROP! EVERY! THING!

P.P.S. Please keep in mind, I am only a priest in training. I may know absolutely nothing.

[Ishin]

Thanks Dosho and everyone else trying to help and contribute.
Gassho
C

[Taigu]

Dosho puts it really beautifully.

Gassho

Taigu

[shikantazen]

Yes Dosho puts it beautifully. Alan did it beautifully. The problem though is this. Jundo is the main teacher here. He is the one that gets into every thread and keeps posting his description. And the way he describes it is very confusing. I strongly feel that is the reason most students and newbies here are left confused. Shikantaza might be difficult to make sense of. But Jundo's descriptions are making it only even more harder to understand. I'm sure he understands it in his mind correctly. I'm sure most senior students and teachers and priests in training get what he says. But to beginners, he is only adding to the confusion with his descriptions.

Every time a senior student or priests or other teachers posted, I benefited and got something out of it. Alan, Dosho, Kyonin...everyone. But with Jundo, it has been of very little help, though he is the one who tried to help most.

Here is the problem. Shikantaza is something that the student has to learn on his own; through his sitting. Giving complex descriptions and asking students to sit with all of that descriptions in mind (or bones whatever) is totally unhelpful. In addition to that he adds a disclaimer saying if we don't sit that way, that is not shikantaza. Seriously?

As a teacher all you need to do is to encourage the student to:

- simply sit with the trust/knowing that whatever happens is okay
- not expect anything from practice

the student will learn on his own.

All these complex descriptions don't aid the student and will only kill his trust especially when he is told any other way to sit (other than what Jundo describes) is incorrect. I feel until this changes, students on our forum will continue to face this problem

I honestly don't have anything against Jundo. I know he is a very nice person and always willing to help. It is just that I feel his teaching style is affecting many students and wanted to speak up and tell what I truly feel.

Gassho,
Sam

[Jundo]

Sorry, Sam, you are right. Yes, of course, Zen throughout its history has been known for being so very clear and easy to understand for beginners. Thus the famous Koan, "What is the sound of TWO hands clapping"? Or, "What were your parent's names AFTER they were born?" The old Zen guys waving their fly swatters through the air in circles were simply swatting flies, and Shobogenzo is a tangle to grasp because, gosh, Dogen was just a terrible writer who never took a community college class on proper prose.

I say what I mean and I mean what I say: If one does not sit Shikantaza as a whole and complete action, the only place to be and thing to do in time and space in that moment ... it is not Shikantaza. Such is Shikantaza 101. Ask Suzuki and Rumme (and truly understand their point).

As a teacher all you need to do is to encourage the student to:

- simply sit with the trust/knowing that whatever happens is okay
- not expect anything from practice

the student will learn on his own.

That is foolish and most naive. That is like a math teacher telling her students, "Whatever answer you come up with the the equation is okay. Do not expect anyway. You will learn on your own". Algebra is tough but, I believe, worth trying to figure out, even if in "Zen Math" 1+1 = 2 and 1 and none and everything and that's not all (except when they do not)! Of course, some folks just don't have a head for it and flunk out.

Perhaps, Sam, the reason some seem to run from teacher to teacher trying to find the one who will let them understand is simply because they do not understand how to "non-think" outside the box?

If people don't like what is taught here, they should go do something else. Find some advice from a magazine. Sit on the sofa and watch Breaking Bad reruns or something less a waste of time.

Another Koan ... "Why did Bodhidharma Come from the West?" The Tree In The Garden.

Gassho, Jundo

[Taigu]

Sam, I honestly don't know where you are coming from here, I have always found Jundo's words most helpful and very wisely crafted. If I may suggest, his style does not suit you and does not speak to your mind.

Gassho

Taigu

[shikantazen]

Jundo, firstly my apologies if I said anything bad. My intention was only to bring up a point. Now to some healthy discussion...

Sorry, Sam, you are right. Yes, of course, Zen throughout its history has been known for being so very clear and easy to understand for beginners. Thus the famous Koan, "What is the sound of TWO hands clapping"?....and Shobogenzo is a tangle to grasp .....

I never said Zen is or should be easy. The instructions for practice though are always crisp and clear. I haven't seen a teacher whose instructions are so complex. It is very important for the instructions to be simpler for the student to follow and finally make sense of the complex philosophy/truth of zen. Dogen's Shobogenzo is ofcourse hard to understand but see his fukanzazenegi. He tells you to sit and nothing more. No complex descriptions of what to do after sitting. Shikantaza instruction is best left unsaid as Dogen did.

I say what I mean and I mean what I say: If one does not sit Shikantaza as a whole and complete action, the only place to be and thing to do in time and space in that moment ... it is not Shikantaza. Such is Shikantaza 101. Ask Suzuki and Rumme (and truly understand their point).

Tell me how can one sit as an unwholesome or incomplete action? I don't even know what that is; before I understand what a whole and complete action is. Do you think this will really help the student? Rather than simply saying as in "Opening the hand of thought" wake up from distraction and drowsiness and come back to your reality. That is a simple instruction. Or follow your breath is a simple instruction. "Sit as Only place to be and only thing to do" at best can only mean don't be distracted to me. I am a stupid dumb student who doesn't understand that complex jargon.

That is foolish and most naive. That is like a math teacher telling her students, "Whatever answer you come up with the the equation is okay. Do not expect anyway. You will learn on your own". Algebra is tough but, I believe, worth trying to figure out....

Perhaps, Sam, the reason who seem to run from teacher to teacher trying to find the one who will let you understand is simply because you do not understand how to "non-think" outside the box?

Yes, what I said could be foolish. I am just a student trying to learn. But there are a good number of teachers who told me that description is good. Brad Warner, Daigaku, and others I stated in my earlier thread. Anyway I strongly feel much more complex descriptions will only do harm rather than good as far as shikantaza is considered

Sorry again if I said anything bad. My intention is only to point. I can only thank you for the efforts you put. I do too. But at the same time this is the only website that still preserves this great teaching of shikantaza and you and me and everyone should accept and learn if some feedback is being given to preserve and improve this.

Gassho,
Sam

[shikantazen]

Also english is not my native language and if my words seem to be direct or not so polite am really sorry

Gassho,
Sam

[Jundo]

... It is very important for the instructions to be simpler for the student to follow and finally make sense of the complex philosophy/truth of zen. Dogen's Shobogenzo is ofcourse hard to understand but see his fukanzazenegi. He tells you to sit and nothing more. No complex descriptions of what to do after sitting. Shikantaza instruction is best left unsaid as Dogen did.

Hi Sam,

It is not a matter of politeness, but simply of not speaking the true. Here is Master Dogen's "clear and simple" instruction from Fukanzazengi, about which you say Dogen "tells you to sit and nothing more. No complex descriptions of what to do after sitting."

Therefore, put aside the intellectual practice of investigating words and chasing phrases, and learn to take the backward step that turns the light and shines it inward. Body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your original face will manifest. If you want to realize such, get to work on such right now.

For practicing Zen, a quiet room is suitable. Eat and drink moderately. Put aside all involvements and suspend all affairs. Do not think "good" or "bad." Do not judge true or false. Give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness; stop measuring with thoughts, ideas, and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha. How could that be limited to sitting or lying down?

At your sitting place, spread out a thick mat and put a cushion on it. Sit either in the full-lotus or half-lotus position. In the full-lotus position, first place your right foot on your left thigh, then your left foot on your right thigh. In the half-lotus, simply place your left foot on your right thigh. Tie your robes loosely and arrange them neatly. Then place your right hand on your left leg and your left hand on your right palm, thumb-tips lightly touching. Straighten your body and sit upright, leaning neither left nor right, neither forward nor backward. Align your ears with your shoulders and your nose with your navel. Rest the tip of your tongue against the front of the roof of your mouth, with teeth together and lips shut. Always keep your eyes open, and breathe softly through your nose.

Once you have adjusted your posture, take a breath and exhale fully, rock your body right and left, and settle into steady, immovable sitting. Think of not thinking. Not thinking-what kind of thinking is that? Nonthinking. This is the essential art of zazen.

The zazen I speak of is not meditation practice. It is simply the dharma gate of joyful ease, the practice-realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is the koan realized; traps and snares can never reach it. If you grasp the point, you are like a dragon gaining the water, like a tiger taking to the mountains. For you must know that the true dharma appears of itself, so that from the start dullness and distraction are struck aside.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/scbs/s...n_zazengi.html

I think there is thinking and non-thinking. But in this case, Sam, I don't think you are thinking clearly!

I am not sure what Bro. Brad said to you (you may be right there), but he can be something of a "just sit, and the posture will do all the work" simpleton sometimes. I am sure you misunderstood Daigaku Rumme.

As one can see in Dogen's words, we are instructed to "think not thinking = non-thinking (Dogen uses a different Kanji for "not" 不思量 and "non" 非思量 thinking that has great significance), to "put aside all involvements and suspend all affairs", that sitting is "the dharma gate of joyful ease." We are told, "Give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness; stop measuring with thoughts, ideas, and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha." Zazen, in Dogen's words, is "the practice-realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is the koan realized."

Dogen seems rather far from "simply sit with the trust/knowing that whatever happens is okay - not expect anything from practice ... the student will learn on his own."

Sorry Sam, sometimes simplicity is not so simple.

Gassho, Jundo

[shikantazen]

Hi Sam,

It is not a matter of politeness, but simply of not speaking the true. Here is Master Dogen's "clear and simple" instruction from Fukanzazengi, about which you say Dogen "tells you to sit and nothing more. No complex descriptions of what to do after sitting."



I think there is thinking and non-thinking. But in this case, Sam, I don't think you are thinking clearly!

I am not sure what Bro. Brad said to you (you may be right there), but he can be something of a "just sit, and the posture will do all the work" simpleton sometimes. I am sure you misunderstood Daigaku Rumme.

As one can see in Dogen's words, we are instructed to "think not thinking = non-thinking (Dogen uses a different Kanji for "not" 不思量 and "non" 非思量 thinking that has great significance), to "put aside all involvements and suspend all affairs", that sitting is "the dharma gate of joyful ease." We are told, "Give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness; stop measuring with thoughts, ideas, and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha." Zazen, in Dogen's words, is "the practice-realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is the koan realized."

Dogen seems rather far from "simply sit with the trust/knowing that whatever happens is okay - not expect anything from practice ... the student will learn on his own."

Sorry Sam, sometimes simplicity is not so simple.

Gassho, Jundo

I am certainly speaking what is true to my experience. If it is not really true, then nobody will bother. You certainly should not. As they say actions speak louder than words. My little words cannot wrong all the good actions you have been doing here. But if there is some truth to my feedback please give it a thought.

Coming to Dogen, yes I mistakenly overlooked the "Think not thinking; non-thinking" part. But his instruction "on what to do once you sit" ends there. Rest of what he speaks is about how this sitting is different from other practices but not a direct instruction on what to do during sitting (or to keep in one's mind/bones during sitting). Except for that one line he really did not say much about what to do after you sit. Did he? He revised fukanzazenegi several times but never felt writing more than that would help. Why?

Even if we consider what he has written after that one line, as complicated, he is from 1200 BC and just because his instructions are complex doesn't mean we should also write such complex instructions. Please show me one modern teacher whose instructions are not simple to follow.

What I gave might be too simple. Brad might be simplifying it too much. But the point is this. How can you get the student started in a simple way that will eventually lead him to the right thing? For breath following teachers, it is building focus/concentration. For us, I feel it is acceptance, learning to be in harmony with what is, letting go of control and arriving at it through non-doing, not-expecting. That is why I said "sit with the trust/knowing whatever happens is okay" and to not expect anything from the practice. "whatever happens is okay" is just an understanding not something to keep in mind during sit. By the way I am not instructing anyone, I am just stating my understanding. A student understanding. I hate to bring teachers' names but all those teachers I named approve of this description.

Leave me. I am nobody. What you do and say are more important and affect more people than what I say in a thread or post. Hence my questions for you to ponder. How can you get the student started in a simple way that will eventually lead him to the right thing? Do you think giving complex descriptions will help a new student? Will any changes from your side help students better understand and do this practice?

Gassho,
Sam