Blue Sky Clouded Mind

[Myosha]

Hello,

This too shall pass.


Gassho,
Myosha

[Jundo]

Please show me one modern teacher whose instructions are not simple to follow.

Okay. How about this book by Daigaku Rumme's Teacher, Sekkei Harada Roshi, translated by Daigaku? Please read the pages discussing "How To Sit Zazen", commenting on the middle portion of Fukanzazengi (for about 7 pages from where it says "Commentary 3" ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=vatHwZ7gd4YC&pg=PT7&lpg=PT7&dq=book+essence+of+zen+daigaku+rumme&source=bl&ots=lHXV4wxhUu&sig=O2Yrgv_qG1Wl7GOTgjDioY5zUJs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-NmZU7vVMo2gyAT7vIKgCQ&ved=0CHIQ6AEwBg#v=snippet&q=%22the%20rest%20of%20the%20Fukan-zazengi%22&f=false

Please read, Sam, and I look forward to your impressions.

Gassho, J

[Ishin]

Hmmm well I feel compelled to say something here as the originator of this thread asking a question , and as a person relatively new to this. But first let me say I have been anything but a sycophant to Jundo and Taigu's teachings here, as I am sure Jundo at least can attest to.

I really don't think there is anything overly complicated in anything that is being taught here. The instructional videos are good. When I have had questions about sitting posture, Taigu was very helpful in answering right away in clear terms. When I have had questions on philosophy and traditional methods, I have received very clear and balanced, and brutally honest answers.

I asked a question in this thread about sitting technique, and what was meant by the blue sky and it was answered. I wasn't kidding when after Jundo answered that I actually thought I understood what he was saying. I do.

This has been my first year practicing and sitting regularly. I bet in 10 years I will have questions too. This won't be for anyone's lack of trying to help me understand. It really doesn't seem that complicated to me to understand WHAT to do. I don't think the answers are that complicated either. Doing it takes practice, and I understand and accept that.

If I were to attend a LIVE Zendo I wouldn't be able to get the quality of personal instruction I think I find here. Not just from Taigu and Jundo , but from everyone here.

What's all the fuss?

Til my next question
Gassho
C

[Juki]

Sam, if I may ask, respectfully, is it possible that you have too many teachers? Running around from place to place, all you are ever going to do is change your ground. You're never going to change your sky.

Gassho,
Juki

[shikantazen]

Jundo,

Thanks for sharing that. The commentary is wonderful.

For the most part, I found it confirms my understanding of the practice. And I am not saying our understandings are in conflict.

- Don't worry about thinking or getting caught up: Page 27 (second half) and 28 (first half). In page 28 he even defines "The movement of your thoughts" as getting caught up in a thought stream (as opposed to a single thought) and the original prose says "nor try to control the movement of your thoughts"
- No expectations: Most pages talk about this. (E.g., don't aim to become a buddha etc...)
- Taking the ego-self out or letting go of control, letting it happen: Many pages talk about this. I think this what you mean by sitting as whole? one with everything. by letting go of control?

Tells me all the more to sit simply without worrying much. Please let me know if you disagree

I'll order and read the book too. Thanks for sharing it again.

Juki, yes I did sit with several teachers/zendos in the last one year. I did not though formally call anyone my teacher except for Taigu.

Gassho,
Sam

[Byokan]

Hi Sam,

I really appreciate your posts, they have prompted some great discussions. I am a beginner with shikantaza, and I have found the teaching here very helpful. Sometimes J&T speak in metaphors or stories or koans, as opposed to a straightforward “do this and then that will result.” But of course they are trying to use words to describe something that is beyond words. We all need to find a teacher we can understand, and there are many out there. I think you have to find one that makes sense to you and then stick around for a while to get the full benefit of their teaching. Of course it’s ok to keep studying the teaching of others, but I think you need to pick a guy and commit to the teaching and the practice he is offering -- not necessarily for life but for a significant period of time. If a teacher doesn’t seem clear to you, I don’t think you need to re-educate him on how to teach better. His style may be exactly right for another student. Just find the one that speaks most clearly to you, to your heart, and then get to practicing.


Here is something Taigu said about his and Jundo’s teaching styles, and I think it’s exactly right:

Well, some people find my prose quite clear, some others don't. If you listen to Jundo, you will find great clarity, sharpness and precision. Great knowledge too. Jundo is on Manjushri side, the sword and clarity of wisdom. This is his style. I am the other guy, more poetic, fluid, quite fond of koans actually, more the Kannon side, dirty sometimes, ordinary. Two ways to convey the same basic teaching and speak to people.

I agree. For me Jundo’s words are like a sword slicing through all the hoodoo-voodoo-zenspeak-jungle to reveal a path that is clear.

Gassho
Lisa

[Heishu]

Hi Sam,

I really appreciate your posts, they have prompted some great discussions. I am a beginner with shikantaza, and I have found the teaching here very helpful. Sometimes J&T speak in metaphors or stories or koans, as opposed to a straightforward “do this and then that will result.” But of course they are trying to use words to describe something that is beyond words. We all need to find a teacher we can understand, and there are many out there. I think you have to find one that makes sense to you and then stick around for a while to get the full benefit of their teaching. Of course it’s ok to keep studying the teaching of others, but I think you need to pick a guy and commit to the teaching and the practice he is offering -- not necessarily for life but for a significant period of time. If a teacher doesn’t seem clear to you, I don’t think you need to re-educate him on how to teach better. His style may be exactly right for another student. Just find the one that speaks most clearly to you, to your heart, and then get to practicing.


Here is something Taigu said about his and Jundo’s teaching styles, and I think it’s exactly right:




I agree. For me Jundo’s words are like a sword slicing through all the hoodoo-voodoo-zenspeak-jungle to reveal a path that is clear.

Gassho
Lisa

Nicely put Lisa, not all flavors of tea are to my liking but yet they are all teas. Zen teachers have different approaches to guiding the student but I don't need to try and learn from all teachers. If I am fortunate to find someone that is a good guide then I am a fortunate student. Jundo and Taigu have two distinct ways of sharing the teachings and I am fortunate to be able to be here and benefit from there years of practice. Of course I am just a stupid old fool stumbling along this path of Zen.

Gassho,
Heishu

[Jundo]

Thank you Sam and everyone for your Teachings.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jishin]

I can't remember for sure but I think one of the teachers here said that "Zen begins when the questions stop."

Gassho, Jishin.

[Hans]

Hello Jishin,

indeed. As dharma practitioners we should not aim to give ourselves a lobotomy, but at the same time if anyone thinks that any kind of dualistic answer/information is the key in itself, well, don't ya think someone would have simply written one comprehensive book with all the answers in it along time ago?

As long as we cling to our own cleverness, we will never open to what we are. Often though, deep down we don't want to radically open, drop off body or mind etc., all we want is to take our inflated sense of self and make it that little bit better so that everything is okay. The same logic that makes people think they will be happy if ONLY they lose ten pounds...if only they get a little more money, if only......this mind-set (or rather reality-tunnel) is a self perpetuating trap.

Shikantaza is not about understanding yet another THING.

Sitting Zazen we don't get to keep our favourite China in the store, it all has to go. All of it.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Myosha]

Hello,

"Well, some people find my prose quite clear, some others don't. If you listen to Jundo, you will find great clarity, sharpness and precision. Great knowledge too. Jundo is on Manjushri side, the sword and clarity of wisdom. This is his style. I am the other guy, more poetic, fluid, quite fond of koans actually, more the Kannon side, dirty sometimes, ordinary. Two ways to convey the same basic teaching and speak to people."

Thanks to all.

Gassho,
Myosha

[alan.r]

Hello Jishin,

indeed. As dharma practitioners we should not aim to give ourselves a lobotomy, but at the same time if anyone thinks that any kind of dualistic answer/information is the key in itself, well, don't ya think someone would have simply written one comprehensive book with all the answers in it along time ago?

As long as we cling to our own cleverness, we will never open to what we are. Often though, deep down we don't want to radically open, drop off body or mind etc., all we want is to take our inflated sense of self and make it that little bit better so that everything is okay. The same logic that makes people think they will be happy if ONLY they lose ten pounds...if only they get a little more money, if only......this mind-set (or rather reality-tunnel) is a self perpetuating trap.

Shikantaza is not about understanding yet another THING.

Sitting Zazen we don't get to keep our favourite China in the store, it all has to go. All of it.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Yes. Occasionally some fresh words, some different words can be helpful - but words are just words, like everything, and dropping everything and radically opening can be seriously frightening because it's also dropping all this good Buddhist and clever zen crap, too.

I just want to thank Jundo and Taigu - your words have always been so clear and helpful for this little sitter. I'm grateful for your dedication to us, for the deftness of your teaching, sometimes gentle, sometimes cutting through the bs. Thanks to everyone here, too.

Gassho

[Jundo]

I would like to say, everyone needs to sit their own sit, figure things out for their self. You have to climb your own mountain, and nobody can do it for you (and you will make progress and get better even though this is a "every step is the destination" mountain with no "place to go" ... but that is off topic).

The Teacher is really a "Zen Friend" and "Guide" with some experience who can point out the good directions and the bad paths that lead in circles or off the cliff (even though there is "no place to fall", once can sure get lost and fall!).

There is no "formula", but there are good and bad paths. It is not a matter of "anything goes". I see folks come and practice with all manner of crazy ideas, and my job is to help them get straight. (There is not "right" or "wrong" on the mountain, and all the mountain is the mountain ... yet there are very "right" and "wrong" ways too! )

But after that ... nobody can do the climbing for anyone else. Though there are right and wrong paths, there is no fixed path. Only your path for your feet.

I wish you a good climb! Your climbing the mountain is Buddha climbing Buddha!

Gassho, J

[shikantazen]

Thank you Jundo and everyone else for the wise words

Gassho,
Sam

[Amelia]

After some time, the nature with which Jundo repeats his phrases eventually stuck with me in the ways I think intended. Just took some time for me.