Blue Sky Clouded Mind

**Jundo** · 06-10-2014, 04:59 PM

Hi Clark,

Some say let them be, some say let them go. Taigu, I believe, says drop everything. In one of Jundo's instructional videos he talks about returning to the clear blue sky.

I do not see much difference there in the words.

Just Sit, not grabbing onto thoughts that come into mind, not wallowing in long trains of thought, "opening the hand of thought" and letting go when finding oneself caught in thoughts nonetheless. Same with various negative emotions (such as fear or anger) during Zazen. That is all. It is not an "effort", so much as just releasing, not grabbing on. (Yes, I would say the clear, blue boundless sky is a metaphor for so).

Sit with dedication, as the only Place to be, only Act in need of acting in that moment. Sit knowing in one's bones that sitting is Whole and Complete.

In doing so, one will find a quiet boundless Illumination that shines between thoughts, like the sky when free of clouds. However, one will also find such Illumination shines right through and as the thoughts themselves ... much as the sky and sun shine through clouds (a metaphor) ... and the thoughts become translucent, and are no long encountered as before.

Our experience of the self and world and life becomes different ... and the frictions, resistance, borders and barriers soften and drop away. and one finds Silence, Peace, Wholeness,

Is that now clear as day?

Gassho, J

**Ishin** · 06-10-2014, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Jundo

Hi Clark,

Just Sit, not grabbing onto thoughts that come into mind, not wallowing in long trains of thought, "opening the hand of thought" and letting go when finding oneself caught in thoughts nonetheless. Same with various negative emotions (such as fear or anger) during Zazen. That is all. It is not an "effort", so much as just releasing, not grabbing on. (Yes, I would say the clear, blue boundless sky is a metaphor for so).

Sit with dedication, as the only Place to be, only Act in need of acting in that moment. Sit knowing in one's bones that sitting is Whole and Complete.

In doing so, one will find a quiet boundless Illumination that shines between thoughts, like the sky when free of clouds. However, one will also find such Illumination shines right through and as the thoughts themselves ... much as the sky and sun shine through clouds (a metaphor) ... and the thoughts become translucent, and are no long encountered as before.

Our experience of the self and world and life becomes different ... and the frictions, resistance, borders and barriers soften and drop away. and one finds Silence, Peace, Wholeness,

Is that now clear as day?

Gassho, J

Actually I think I can simply just say.. Yes. But, I will keep sitting with it, just to make sure.

Gassho
Clark

**alan.r** · 06-10-2014, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Clark

So do we

1. simply make an effort to drop all thoughts and visualize a clear blue sky?

2. Is the blue sky thing just a metaphor for dropping all thoughts?

3. Do we drop all thoughts or just sit with all thoughts letting them be?

4. Are any of these thoughts on thoughts correct?

What I have been doing is just sitting, and when thoughts come up just letting them go, telling my mind to not dwell on them this is the time for not-thought. Is this correct?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thank you!

Gassho
C

First, great questions, all of which I've had and still have - it's never ending, to me, but that's the point. Second, this reminds me of Sam's thread. In any case, here's the "problem" from my little perspective: it's difficult to know how to do "shikantaza" correctly because there's literally no objective and formulaic way to do it and even with a book like Opening the Hand of Thought (which I think strives hard to make a "guidebook" for shikantaza) no one can really really show it to us. Therefore we use metaphor (the sky thing) or the very very literal "drop everything," both of which can only point. The difficulty, of course, is when actually sitting and encountering thoughts and feelings. There arises this problem of "am I letting thoughts go now? do I consciously let this thought go, or is that pushing the thought away? where is this "blue sky"? is my zazen apathetic or is it goal-driven? am i really just sitting or, etc, etc?"

All of that is the freaking point of zazen, to me: sitting reveals to us the circles we engage in; the circles of thought and emotion. Trying to zazen reveals the circle of trying to zazen, our desperate need to "figure it out" even if we think we're not trying to get enlightened.

In the other thread, Sam has questions about "technique" - I'm basically convinced that all of the "method no-methods" that he mentions are all the same, in actuality, and that they merely appear different to our discriminating mind.

Here's my take, only because sometimes another's perspective can be helpful: when we sit, some of us might focus on the "spacious awareness" or some of us might repeatedly "let thoughts go and return to the body sitting as sitting." We're all individuals and everything we learn here at Treeleaf must be experimented with and tried and figured out on our own, as you already know. Jundo cannot sit for us. Taigu cannot sit for me. And so, I go in these same circles, asking myself whether I'm doing it right or not, but sitting is not about right or wrong, it is allowing everything, including oneself, to be just as one is: for me, this means sitting and wholeheartedly observing all things and accepting all things. So when a thought comes, I watch it, but I do not think "I need to let that thought go, it is a cloud, and I'm supposed to be in the clear blue sky;" I try to sit and just watch the thought or feeling and just watch myself. It is an allowing. Shikantaza is the dropping of figuring out how to shikantaza, with great trust and acceptance in where you are, and therefore, without volition or intention, with great gratitude.

And then there are just thoughts and feelings and the wall and the trees outside and my wife drying her hair in another room. And there are larger and larger spaces between thoughts, but that doesn't mean thoughts or feelings aren't there, it's just that they are quieter and part of the "blue sky," part of the quietness now. So for me, my problem is often mistaking "the sky" as good and the "the clouds" as bad, when actuality they are both the same, just as we are the same as everything when we allow everything to sit with us.

Maybe this is all wrong, and if so, that's okay, I'll keep sitting.

Gassho

**Jundo** · 06-10-2014, 05:47 PM

Guys, don't overthink this thinking non-thinking.

Just sit as described, not getting tangled in thoughts ... letting go when tangled.

And most vitally ... Sit with dedication, as the only Place to be, only Act in need of acting in that moment. Sit knowing in one's bones that sitting is Whole and Complete.

Gassho, J

**Dosho** · 06-10-2014, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Clark

Actually I think I can simply just say.. Yes. But, I will keep sitting with it, just to make sure.

Clark,

Wow...you must be rather "advanced" then! I still haven't a clue.

Let's just sit then, shall we? No mud to clear; immersed in mud! It is nothing but what we think it is.

Gassho,
Dosho

**Byokan** · 06-10-2014, 06:00 PM

alan.r,

wow! Thank you, that is one of the best descriptions I've ever read.

Sometimes even "the watcher" goes away. And if not, no matter. "Immersed in mud" is zazen too.

Gassho
Lisa

**RichardH** · 06-10-2014, 06:12 PM

There is always the opportunity to sit together on G+

Gassho Daizan

**alan.r** · 06-10-2014, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Daizan

There is always the opportunity to sit together on G+

Gassho Daizan

Yep, and PS: sorry I was a little late this morning. In my sleepiness I was having trouble navigating G+.

Gassho

**Jundo** · 06-10-2014, 06:28 PM

I have begun to notice lately that folks seem very much concerned about what to do with the thoughts during Zazen, but few people seem to mention the following ... which is perhaps the most vital aspect of all. This is the crux, and must not be missed:

Originally posted by Jundo

And most vitally ... Sit with dedication, as the only Place to be, only Act in need of acting in that moment. Sit knowing in one's bones that sitting is Whole and Complete.

Here is my standard long version:

One must sit with the attitude [felt in the marrow of the bones] that sitting itself is the Whole and Complete Act, the one thing to do ... the only thing in need of doing ... in that moment in all reality ... no other place to go, no other action in need of doing in such moment. Sitting is not an instrumentality or technique to the realizing of something ... and thus in dropping all thought of instrumentality toward realization, one realizes what can only be realized in such way.

...

Thus, when there is sat an instant of Zazen as wholeness in just sitting, the only place to be and act to do in that instant, in all of reality, to fulfill life as life ... the Buddha and all the Ancestors just sitting in that instant of sitting, no other thing to attain or which ever can be attained ... no other place to go or in need of going ... all holes filled, whether full or empty or in between ... all lack and excess resolved in that one sitting, with not one thing to add or take away ... judgments dropped away, "likes and dislikes" put aside ... nothing missing from Zazen (even when we might feel that "something is missing", for one can be fully content with the feeling of lack!) ... the sitting of Zazen and all life experienced as complete and whole as just the sitting of Zazen ... the entire universe manifesting itself on the Zafu at that moment ...

I wonder why folks seem so concerned about what to do or not do with the thoughts (which is fine), but do not seem concerned about the rest. I cannot emphasize such enough.

Gassho, J

**alan.r** · 06-10-2014, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Jundo

I have begun to notice lately that folks seem very much concerned about what to do with the thoughts during Zazen, but few people seem to mention the following ... which is perhaps the most vital aspect of all. This is the crux, and must not be missed:

Here is my standard long version:

I wonder why folks seem so concerned about what to do or not do with the thoughts (which is fine), but do not seem concerned about the rest. I cannot emphasize such enough.

Gassho, J

Yes, thanks Jundo. I've noticed this and this is what I was trying to get at above. There is nothing to do with thoughts! Nothing! We have nothing to do with them! All I really meant to express in my above comment is that there "seems" like there is something to do with thoughts because thoughts are always part of the equation of shikantaza (drop Thoughts; let Thoughts go; let the Clouds/Thoughts pass, etc) - but this is the difficulty we all get trapped in sometimes, focusing on "thoughts" as though they're somehow different from everything else, somehow not blue sky also, some the "most important" part of the shikantaza thing. It's like chasing after enlightenment/trying to let go of thoughts. For me, I sit with a great allowing, acceptance, and gratitude, and out of that, there is wholeness, thoughts and all.

Gassho

Mp · 06-10-2014, 06:42 PM

Thank you Jundo ... I like this old adage that I heard once before. "When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep. When doing the dishes, do the dishes. When sitting, sit." =)

Gassho
Shingen

**shikantazen** · 06-10-2014, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by alan.r

And so, I go in these same circles, asking myself whether I'm doing it right or not, but sitting is not about right or wrong, it is allowing everything, including oneself, to be just as one is: for me, this means sitting and wholeheartedly observing all things and accepting all things. So when a thought comes, I watch it, but I do not think "I need to let that thought go, it is a cloud, and I'm supposed to be in the clear blue sky;" I try to sit and just watch the thought or feeling and just watch myself. It is an allowing. Shikantaza is the dropping of figuring out how to shikantaza, with great trust and acceptance in where you are, and therefore, without volition or intention, with great gratitude.

....... So for me, my problem is often mistaking "the sky" as good and the "the clouds" as bad, when actuality they are both the same, just as we are the same as everything when we allow everything to sit with us.

Gassho

Wonderful post! You, me and clark should probably form an "allowing" group against Jundo and dosho's "letting go" group

Clark, thank you for asking this question and sorry if I confused you with my thread yesterday

Gassho,
Sam

**Ishin** · 06-10-2014, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Jundo

I have begun to notice lately that folks seem very much concerned about what to do with the thoughts during Zazen, but few people seem to mention the following ... which is perhaps the most vital aspect of all. This is the crux, and must not be missed:

Here is my standard long version:

I wonder why folks seem so concerned about what to do or not do with the thoughts (which is fine), but do not seem concerned about the rest. I cannot emphasize such enough.

Gassho, J

Yes, that is a good point and thank you for underlining this important aspect also.

**Ishin** · 06-10-2014, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Dosho

Clark,

Wow...you must be rather "advanced" then! I still haven't a clue.

Let's just sit then, shall we? No mud to clear; immersed in mud! It is nothing but what we think it is.

Gassho,
Dosho

Yes thank you Dosho. I am very precocious aren't I?

Gassho
C

Blue Sky Clouded Mind

Blue Sky Clouded Mind

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