The beast, and other representatives of the darkness...

**Hans** · 02-18-2008, 10:36 AM

Hello Steph!

The glamour of the "dark side" somehow lost almost all of its attraction once people in my family started dying and a few other things happened that, for the first time in my life, did bring home the true scope of the word suffering. And yes, I did lead a very...well if not really sheltered than definitely extremely blessed life until a few years ago....I mean I am still a happy bunny, but reality made sure that I got its message. Since then I just want to be a happy nobody, the idea of being the human equivalent of a castrated water buffalo at some point in my life seems rather appealing.

A lot of the issues raised in this thread are truly worth raising, although with so many strong emotions involved there are bound to be tensions, so I guess if we all just try to keep reasonably cool, all of this is going to strengthen the Treeleaf sangha.

One of the things that people seem to have diverging ideas about is whether this forum is just a forum, or actually a part of a sangha, or something in between or whatever. I personally dislike most internet forums, because there is always a tendency for all people involved to write in a style that differs from their actual behaviour in a day-to-day context (myself included).

To me, this is not just a forum, but the virtual equivalent of entering a real zendo. In a real Zendo, I want to be able to address all kinds of issues, not just the cosy ones, but at the same time I want a context that doesn't make me feel like I have to defend myself. I experience loads of harsh words and unkind behaviour in my everyday life as it is, I don't need an extra zendo that adds to it. Even physically real zendos are idealized set-ups for practice, and so thex should be.

Gassho (and I like my Gasshos, because they are an expression of a truly heartfelt wish to express my respect towards other Zennies ),

Hans

**Ankai** · 02-18-2008, 01:50 PM

But I've also been disrespected enough myself that I'm not willing to take certain things any more, no matter who they're coming from. And that's all I'll say about that.

If you walk in a room full of strangers, and before anypne gets a chance to know you start demanding attention, respect, and telling the leader he's wrong, it isn't disrespect when they tell you you're doing it.
No one here' disrespected you, Steph, They've disagreed with you, and not backed down when you got defensive or aggressive.
And nobody I've seen reply to you seems to dislike you. No one is saying you shouldn't say what's on your mind. And having read your posts, you have some interesting ideas! Just crank the tone down a couple of notches, okay?

**Kelly M.** · 02-18-2008, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by KvonNJ

But I've also been disrespected enough myself that I'm not willing to take certain things any more, no matter who they're coming from. And that's all I'll say about that.

If you walk in a room full of strangers, and before anypne gets a chance to know you start demanding attention, respect, and telling the leader he's wrong, it isn't disrespect when they tell you you're doing it.
No one here' disrespected you, Steph, They've disagreed with you, and not backed down when you got defensive or aggressive.
And nobody I've seen reply to you seems to dislike you. No one is saying you shouldn't say what's on your mind. And having read your posts, you have some interesting ideas! Just crank the tone down a couple of notches, okay?

Well put Kvon.

**Hans** · 02-18-2008, 02:52 PM

Hi Harry!

Let me see, last time I checked Jundo was the one who founded this whole website, he's the one who gets up everyday to do his daily zencasts for which I am grateful....he is the one who happens to be Nishijima sensei's dharma heir (which to me is a simple statement meaning "yeah, he's kinda alright and knows his stuff, otherwise I wouldn't approve of him"). He's the one who invested a great amount of time and probably a bit of money too into this whole endeavour....you know what, if someone who tries to use a metaphor "walking into a room of strangers..." and then refers to him as the leader in this example....

I don't have any problem with that whatsoever, for it to be a trend however, I guess everyone would have to call him "leader" all the time. I've read my 1984 and am quite aware of the importance of words and their meaning. I don't have a problem with the word leader, but then again it must be because I is German.

Why did you feel the need to point this out to anyone? Don't you think we are all quite capable of reading ourselves? Splitting hairs, anyone?

Fluffy Gassho from a brainwashed cult-follower who hates to take responsibility for himself.....ommmm mani padme hum.....

Hans

**TracyF** · 02-18-2008, 02:56 PM

Stephanie,

I'm still new to this but it's pretty apparent that zen practice is useless if you only meditate. Shikantaza is the core but you have to practice zen all day. That's why we have the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

Everyone has so-called 'demons'. It seems to me that Jundo and other teachers are not suggesting that we don't acknowledge our demons. In fact, we are to face them head on. The difference is how you face them. Do you analyze them, wallow in them, feed them and become them or do you acknowledge them and then let them starve? Maybe after you let them fade, you can figure out where they came from and attain a sort of resolution.

However, looking at your posts, I see a huge amount of effort being put into feeding the beast. If that helps you, great! But I don't think it coincides with zen practice. You seem to be attached to the notion of making this board be something other than a sangha where we help each other learn and practice zen. Second Noble Truth and all that.

**Fuken** · 02-18-2008, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by HezB

Chaps,

Do we now refer to Jundo as 'the leader'?

That's an interesting new trend.

Regards,

Harry.

I prefer that in the original german.
:twisted:
Folks, that is awful... please don't do that ever again.

Jordan

**Ankai** · 02-18-2008, 03:58 PM

Chaps,

Do we now refer to Jundo as 'the leader'?

That's an interesting new trend.

Regards,

Harry.

Actually, the trend seems to be to ignore the point of what one another are actually saying and come up with the best zinger.
Well done!

**Stephanie** · 02-18-2008, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Jundo

I would second that. I suffered from years of depression in my twenties, self doubt, directionlessness, over-thinking, fears. anger. And guess what, I still have some of that now and then because to be so is to be human ... goes with the territory until we die or turn into stones. But, you know, it is 1/10th of what it was because I can catch my own inner bullshit before it starts ... or recognize as bullshit thoughts and emotions I used to think of as unchangeable.

So, if you say the following you have been doing Shikantaza "wrong" ...

... this silence is incomplete. When you emerge from it, all the other "stuff" is still there.

... I've seen what people are like who have sat for years and so far all of them still seem to have a number of major issues that show they haven't addressed the kinds of things I'm trying to address. And maybe it's impossible to address them, but I haven't given up just yet.

Would it help to say that, on the "other side" of Shikanataza, the "stuff" should be seen to be "there but not there". Our thoughts, emotions, dilemas, issues, struggles are a dream ... although real in being our dream. So they are 100% real but, as well, not real. If the "stuff" is still there without you also seeing through it, something is amiss in your approach.

For example, now, if I start to get depressed, doubtful, fearful, I realize it is just my mind at work. It does not need to be that way and can be dropped or changed (like changing channels on the TV). Or, if I fall into anger I catch myself quicker and can recover balance quicker (notice, however, that I did not say I never get angry, blue, etc.)

I am going to make a wild guess (I might be wrong) that you are doing some form of one pointed sitting where you are stilling the mind quite a bit, but you are not practicing "seeing thing just as they are", accepting "crap as wonderfully just perfect crap". Stilling the mind by itself is not sufficient because you return and all the "stuff" is still there.

Gassho, Jundo (also a former Brooklynite)

Jundo,

Gassho--this was a bazillion times more helpful than your other responses in this thread. Instead of simply feeling dismissed, I can see where what you are saying to me is coming from. Which also makes it easier to see how what you are saying relates to my situation, and how I can apply it.

And I also can see where I need to clarify about how I sit, how I practice, and how I experience and work with this stuff. I think the sitting I have been doing over the past several years has elements of both one-pointed and shikantaza practice. I started out just trying to do shamatha, or one-pointed concentration, but my mind is so unruly that I simply, to tolerate sitting at all, had to relinquish the controlling and goal-oriented aspects of that style. So I began to "just sit" with the whirling discursiveness and emotions.

And yes, indeed, I began to be able to see through them and not identify with them. This has been an immensely valuable and sanity-preserving skill and I understand 100% why you are so adamant in the way you teach it. Every day, I am visited by thoughts I have learned to "see through" and let go of. For example, I start freaking out by comparing myself to others or having doom-laded thoughts of impending failure, and thanks to practice, I almost immediately can see these thoughts for what they are, let go of them, have a laugh, and feel 1000% more sane. The new friends I've been making comment on how I seem preternaturally laid back about the stress of social work school, and I know I would be a gibbering wreck if it were not for my years of Buddhist practice.

However, there are some thoughts and emotions that are not so simple or easily dealt with. And maybe it's because, as TracyF puts it, part of me is as drawn to these thoughts and feelings as it is unnerved by them. I can't let go of them so easily because the willpower or desire to do so is not there. And that's what I was trying to describe in the first set of posts to this thread. Part of me likes the Beast. I'm haunted, seduced, disturbed by these mind-states in a way that "gets me going." That part's not a mystery--the mystery is why? And also, "Is letting go of all this really the best way...?"

And that's why "just sitting," and the "skills" that come from that, isn't enough. Because I want to feel alive, and these mind-states make me feel alive. Whereas the placid detachment borne of zazen, while it can be invigorating in its own way, almost feels like an early retirement. And I'm bothered by that, and maybe it's simply as Harry says, that I'm still young. I don't want to die or "hang it up" before I've fully lived and then regret that the other parts of me never got to be expressed. Simply "letting go" or "seeing through" all of this doesn't touch that inner hunger or restlessness, believe me. Maybe I just need to "mellow with age," or something, but, uh, not much I can do about that other than ride Nature's waves...

**Fuken** · 02-18-2008, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by HezB

ps. Anyone who was truly sincere in Gassho-ing to me, Buddha, a dog pooh, or the universe or whatever would not have room to consider my thoughts on their practice. Or rather they would have room enough for everything.

Outside of formal Buddhist practice the Gassho is meaningless to me and my cultural experience. Gassho-ing outside of practice, in my view, has nothing to do with Buddhist truth and it seems a bit lame. I accept that this may be radically opposed to other people's views, but, there you go... Gassho away to your hearts content.

Dogen considered that a simple 'just bow' contained the whole Buddha-dharma, and I agree with his view. Its a wonderful idea, its better when realized very quickly and easily. That post of mine re. Gassho-ing was inspired by what I saw as someone basically wanting to call me an A-hole and doing so in a round-a-bout way and then finishing the post with a reference to what I consider a profound Zen action/practice: "Gassho"

I'm sorry, but that picture just ain't right to me. I stand by my statement and still think it a valid point.

Regards,

Harry.

Harry has brought up an excelent point, and the best thing I have seen on this thread.

When dose your practice stop?

Dogen, did not only do Just sitting Zen. He outlined about every aspect of life as practice. Hence in Soto Zen we now have a chant for brushing out teeth.

Practice is life.

In gassho,
Jordan

**Gregor** · 02-18-2008, 04:18 PM

Stephanie,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts in that last comment. When I was your age (and older, I'm 28 now so you do the math,lol) I was pretty troubled, unhappy, self destructive. So I think I know where you are coming from.

Sometimes, I still have trouble accepting the acceptance of Shikantaza myself, but I am working at it.

Buddhist practice has been really good for me. But, before I was ready to handle the pure acceptance of Zazen/Shikantaza I did a lot of work with the Four Noble Truths. This teaching is something that speaks right to the heart of the "dark side" you are feeling.

In Theravada Buddhism, it's often suggested that people work on cultivating an understanding of the Four Noble Truth's and Ethics training before pursuing meditation. Meditation can be difficult and unproductive if our mind's are full of a lot of unpleasant thoughts. I'm speaking from experience here not passing a judgment on you, okay?

If I may suggest you read Ajahn Sumedhmo's book The Four Noble Truths ? It's from the Theravada perspective, but really talks about these things and gives some good tools for working with them. If your interested PM me and I can give you a weblink for a free PDF or send you my copy.

Whatever you decide to do, don't give up on practice and cultivate the seeds that are positive and simply turn away from the seeds that are not. That practice itself will reap some benefit in time.

take care,

Greg

**Stephanie** · 02-18-2008, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by HezB

I think it "NICE" (as in Golden Rule) when older people, in their dealings with young people, recall just how difficult it can be to be a young person.

Thank you for the empathy, Harry. A simple observation, but so helpful. It put a lot in perspective for me.

Originally posted by Longdog

Negative thoughts are so powerful they can and do make you ill. Positive thoughts can be so powerful to that they can and do make you better.

Where are your thoughts when you're not thinking them? I'd say they don't exist. We create them in our desparation to fill the silence.

So if you become aware of when you are having thoughts that aren't life enhancing, say stop to those thoughts and think of something positive instead, something that makes you happy, things you like doing.

The brain is not so clever really you know, it can't distinguish between real or imagined situations. If you churn over about things that aren't happy and healthful it will believe you are in that pit. If you think of happy and healthful thoughts (even if imagined)you will move towards a happy and healthful life.

These are excellent and helpful points--thank you. I think you're dead-on about our capacity to create our own realities, and the importance of keeping that in mind when we seem to be struggling with some sort of "real" problem.

As I was finally able to see and verbalize above, I think the big challenge for me isn't the capacity to see the ephemeral nature of thoughts and feelings, but rather, desire... the desire not to let go of certain thoughts and feelings, for whatever reason. And I think that reason may simply be, that thinking and feeling in certain ways makes me feel alive. That passion--a direct counterpoint to the dispassion taught by Buddhism. Hence my struggle, between these poles of being young and wanting to feel alive, and between seeking the peace and wisdom borne of detachment. I think there's a "Middle Way" perhaps between the two (Vimalakirti Sutra does a good job of illuminating this), but it's a difficult balance to strike.