The beast, and other representatives of the darkness...

[Jundo]

Let's all take a breath a start again.

Stephanie, I am sorry that the Sangha is not as you expected. It is focused on Shikantaza, which is founded upon quieting the storm of thoughts and emotions and views within, all to experience the world from perspectives of silence and stillness. I hope that you will be willing to try that Practice when you are here.

It is not that we are without all thoughts and emotions and views when experiencing the world through silence and stillness. It is that those thoughts and emotions and views are quite different when seen through silence and stillness. So, that is what we do here.

Gassho, Jundo

[Fuken]

Reading this thread made me think of an moldy oldy but goodie...

SUBHUMANS:

"Mickey Mouse Is Dead"

Mickey Mouse is dead
Got kicked in the head
Cause people got too serious
They planned out what they said
They couldn't take the fantasy
They tried to accept reality
Analyzed the laughs
Cause pleasure comes in halves
The purity of comedy
They had to take it seriously
Changed the words around
Tried to make it look profound
The comedian is on stage
Pisstaking for a wage
The critics think he's great
But the laughter turns to hate
Mickey Mouse is on T.V.
And the kids stare at the screen
But the pictures are all black and white
And the words don't mean a thing
Cause Mummy's got no money
And Daddy is in jail
He couldn't afford the license
She couldn't afford the bail
The kids out in the road
Their minds have all gone cold
Cause Mickey Mouse is dead
They shot him through the head
With ignorance and scorn
They believed in something new
They read the papers watched the films
And they thought they new the truth
But reality deceives
Whatever you believe
There's always another idea
And theirs is based on fear
The fear of being sussed
For what you really are
The fear of being laughed at
When you go too far
They call it paranoia
You can laugh it away
Until you come to realize
That everyone's the same
People hide their problems
Under faces of contempt
They hide them 'til it kills them
And no one is exempt
Not even you
Look what you done to Mickey Mouse

[Gregor]

Jordan,

Wow .. . I'm gonna have go n' check out the subhumans.

[Stephanie]

Let's all take a breath a start again.

I can do that.

And from now on I'll only post haikus about kittens and rainbows :wink:

And I apologize if you feel disrespected by me, Jundo, because I do respect you, your honesty, and what you are doing here. But I've also been disrespected enough myself that I'm not willing to take certain things any more, no matter who they're coming from. And that's all I'll say about that.

[Fuken]

Sometimes we are Mickey mouse, sometimes we kill Mickey mouse.
Sometimes we just sit by and watch Mickey mouse getting killed, sometimes we might just be able to save Mickey mouse.

Gassho,
Jordan

[Stephanie]

It is focused on Shikantaza, which is founded upon quieting the storm of thoughts and emotions and views within, all to experience the world from perspectives of silence and stillness. I hope that you will be willing to try that Practice when you are here.

I get that, Jundo. And I appreciate that perspective, and that function of zazen, immensely. Believe me, I do. But my point in bringing my "storm of thoughts and emotions" here isn't to say, "Thinking and feeling all of this stuff is great," or "Thinking and feeling all of this stuff is horrible." It's simply to say, "This is my experience; this is what I bring to the cushion and this is what I bring to you," and to hopefully find some support and guidance in working with these things.

I've been sitting for years now, and daily or near-daily for at least three. I have tried that practice, and I'm still trying it, and I've told you about that. If anything, it's stirred all this stuff up even more for me. Telling me to "just sit" doesn't help me. I get that, I already do that. The thing is, I've sat enough that I don't have these silly ideas any more about what it's going to accomplish. I've made a lot of peace with "myself," with the bundle of traits and quirks that comprise my subjective experience.

And what I've tried to say, is I've already been through that grinder, of sitting in hopes of silencing or stilling this "storm," and not only has it not happened, I've grown to question whether desiring such a thing ever was wise. I've learned from experience that simply taking the "Absolute-ist" perspective toward thoughts and emotions that it's all ephemeral, let go of it all, etc., can not only be problematic, but can even be destructive. Our thoughts and feelings can tell us important things and give us important pointers.

Going through social work school and studying these things and coming to an understanding about my particular psychological hang-ups has been immensely healing. If I'd "just sat" and ignored the "storm" and let it go, I wouldn't have experienced that healing. But it's an ongoing process, and I am really wrestling with a lot of this stuff in a visceral way; it's not just idle intellectual masturbation. And maybe my perspective, that simply letting go of it all and sitting in silence is incomplete, doesn't quite fit in here; I won't take it personally if you don't want me bringing my stuff here. I'll just move on.

But I personally believe that practicing Zen doesn't necessitate dismissing and not engaging with this stuff. And that's why I thought perhaps I would "fit in" here, because the consensus when I came here at first seemed to be that it's all grist for the mill, that it's all practice, that it's all Buddhism. That's what I cherished and respected about this place. If it's not the case, I can move on. Like I said before, I'm not even all that certain how much of a "Soto gal" I am, so maybe I really am an odd duck here. But at the very least, I feel like if that's the opinion, it could have been handled with more grace and respect toward me, instead of a presumptuous attitude that I'm coming from a place of idle intellectual speculation.

[Jundo]

Mickey Mouse is more than welcome here, alive or dead, so long as he and Minnie practice Shikantaza and are polite.

[Stephanie]

Steph, you talk too much. I mean that sincerely and lovingly. You head is full of crap. Don't worry, it is not just you but most people on this planet. Your emails are filled with "issues" and philosophical positions and ethical dilemmas and clever ideas that only exist cause you throw words at them. I want you to write no more emails for awhile longer than 30 words. And you need to actuate being less defensive, less negative, less aggressive ... these are all states of mind you create in your own head. Try being open, accepting, cooperative for awhile.Otherwise, Zen Practice is not for you. Try something else.

Was this polite, Jundo? Was this kind? It's my personal take that people in positions of power not only should not get a "free pass" from the rules they enforce on everyone else, but that they actually should be held to a greater level of responsibility and accountability than those with less power.

The above quoted paragraph of yours was presumptuous, demeaning, dismissive, and hurtful. I think you were being a bully. But of course, because you're the "Sensei" the majority of people here are going to give you a free pass and gang up on the person challenging you. I'm willing to "take a breath and start over" but only if you meet me halfway.

[Jundo]

Hello Stephanie,

I've been sitting for years now, and daily or near-daily for at least three. I have tried that practice, and I'm still trying it, and I've told you about that. If anything, it's stirred all this stuff up even more for me. Telling me to "just sit" doesn't help me.

Then you have not been doing it right. (Yes, there is a right way and a wrong way to drop all thought of 'right' and 'wrong')

I see no indication in your words that you take the storm of thoughts and emotions as just your mind's dream. You create a reality of mountains of words and responses and feelings and philosophical points, and you take them for real and defend them to the death ... unwilling to quiet the mind, let them go.

Now, those emotions and thought and such ARE real, but they are not real in the least. We can hold them, analyze them, rejoice in them or despise them, you can engage them and wrestle them ... in fact, we should do that, as that is what it means to be alive... but we must not get lost in them. You must do so knowing silence and stillness in order to really understand them (and which ones to hold on to, which ones to let drop away)

If you have given up on quiet, peace and silence then I feel very sorry, as that is an excellent medicine for the chatter chatter chatter in the brain that you take as real.

If you are not willing to give Shikantaza another go because you have been there and done that, then there is little I can tell you. This place is focused on a practice that you have already rejected. I wish you would reconsider.

Gassho, Jundo

PS- I read your above message only after I wrote this Stephanie. Okay, I will change the first sentence, which is probably too strong. I apologize if I hurt you. But I must stay with the rest.

Steph, your head is chattering too much. I mean that sincerely and lovingly. You head is full of crap. Don't worry, it is not just you but most people on this planet. Your emails are filled with "issues" and philosophical positions and ethical dilemmas and clever ideas that only exist cause you throw words at them. I want you to write no more emails for awhile longer than 30 words. And you need to actuate being less defensive, less negative, less aggressive ... these are all states of mind you create in your own head. Try being open, accepting, cooperative for awhile.Otherwise, Zen Practice is not for you. Try something else.

[Stephanie]

Hello Stephanie,

I've been sitting for years now, and daily or near-daily for at least three. I have tried that practice, and I'm still trying it, and I've told you about that. If anything, it's stirred all this stuff up even more for me. Telling me to "just sit" doesn't help me.

Then you have not been doing it right. (Yes, there is a right way and a wrong way to drop all thought of 'right' and 'wrong')

I see no indication in your words that you take the storm of thoughts and emotions as just your mind's dream. You create a reality of mountains of words and responses and feelings and philosophical points, and you take them for real and defend them to the death ... unwilling to quiet the mind, let them go.

Now, those emotions and thought and such ARE real, but they are not real in the least. We can hold them, analyze them, rejoice in them or despise them, you can engage them and wrestle them ... in fact, we should do that, as that is what it means to be alive... but we must not get lost in them. You must do so knowing silence and stillness in order to really understand them (and which once to hold on to, which ones to let drop away)

If you have given up on quiet, peace and silence then I feel very sorry, as that is an excellent medicine for the chatter chatter chatter in the brain that you take as real.

If you are not willing to give Shikantaza another go because you have been there and done that, then there is little I can tell you. This place is focused on a practice that you have already rejected. I wish you would reconsider.

Gassho, Jundo

Could you try to hold back from making so many assumptions?

Where have I said I have "given up on quiet, peace, and silence"? I find such a proposition absurd, as the silence of zazen is still a haven for me. What I do attest is that I believe--daresay, know--that this silence is incomplete. When you emerge from it, all the other "stuff" is still there.

I haven't given up on zazen. As I've stated, I still sit every day. And while I'm sure my practice is imperfect, I believe that the way I sit now and have sat for a while is shikantaza or a close relative. But what I have given up on is this notion that it's the end-all, be-all of dealing with existential dilemmas. That's part of what I was getting at in this thread--I've seen what people are like who have sat for years and so far all of them still seem to have a number of major issues that show they haven't addressed the kinds of things I'm trying to address. And maybe it's impossible to address them, but I haven't given up just yet.

I know you are wrong, because I have inhabited and applied your perspective and seen its error. But you know you are right, because you have applied your perspective and seen it work. Never the twain shall meet? That's fine; but what isn't fine to me is the presumptuous disrespect you insist on continuing to show me. You assume to know exactly what my experience is, but you don't. And I don't care what title you've been given, or by whom--all that matters to me is what you do in this moment. And what I see you doing is assuming rather than listening; dismissing rather than exploring; giving orders rather than actually showing me why or how doing what you say would have merit.

The basic point is that I would have to see that shikantaza accomplished for you what I am looking to accomplish for me to simply do what you say. And I don't see that. I'm not experiencing you as a gentle person, someone who is showing me kindness or understanding, or someone who ever wrestled with or found answers to the sorts of questions I'm asking. Maybe you did go through something like the latter--the recounting of which would be immensely more helpful to me than just telling me what to do. But you are presuming a degree of authority I am not going to grant you just because. Show me why I should follow your way and see just how quickly I will do so.

[Longdog]

Oh the wonder of youtube

Mikey Mouse is dead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWvjUPI_JeA[/video]]

[Gregor]

Stephanie,

I'm not sure what you are looking for? Is it proof that the rest of us have struggled with demons and the assorted suffering that is inherent with human existence? Do you seriously doubt that?

I think you can assume that of every person here.

[Jundo]

Stephanie,

I'm not sure what you are looking for? Is it proof that the rest of us have struggled with demons and the assorted suffering that is inherent with human existence? Do you seriously doubt that?

I think you can assume that of every person here.

I would second that. I suffered from years of depression in my twenties, self doubt, directionlessness, over-thinking, fears. anger. And guess what, I still have some of that now and then because to be so is to be human ... goes with the territory until we die or turn into stones. But, you know, it is 1/10th of what it was because I can catch my own inner bullshit before it starts ... or recognize as bullshit thoughts and emotions I used to think of as unchangeable.

So, if you say the following you have been doing Shikantaza "wrong" ...

... this silence is incomplete. When you emerge from it, all the other "stuff" is still there.

... I've seen what people are like who have sat for years and so far all of them still seem to have a number of major issues that show they haven't addressed the kinds of things I'm trying to address. And maybe it's impossible to address them, but I haven't given up just yet.

Would it help to say that, on the "other side" of Shikanataza, the "stuff" should be seen to be "there but not there". Our thoughts, emotions, dilemas, issues, struggles are a dream ... although real in being our dream. So they are 100% real but, as well, not real. If the "stuff" is still there without you also seeing through it, something is amiss in your approach.

For example, now, if I start to get depressed, doubtful, fearful, I realize it is just my mind at work. It does not need to be that way and can be dropped or changed (like changing channels on the TV). Or, if I fall into anger I catch myself quicker and can recover balance quicker (notice, however, that I did not say I never get angry, blue, etc.)

I am going to make a wild guess (I might be wrong) that you are doing some form of one pointed sitting where you are stilling the mind quite a bit, but you are not practicing "seeing thing just as they are", accepting "crap as wonderfully just perfect crap". Stilling the mind by itself is not sufficient because you return and all the "stuff" is still there.

Gassho, Jundo (also a former Brooklynite)

[Longdog]

I've recently had a lot of my ideas about the power of thought confirmed. They are very powerful.

Negative thoughts are so powerful they can and do make you ill. Positive thoughts can be so powerful to that they can and do make you better.

Where are your thoughts when you're not thinking them? I'd say they don't exist. We create them in our desparation to fill the silence.

So if you become aware of when you are having thoughts that aren't life enhancing, say stop to those thoughts and think of something positive instead, something that makes you happy, things you like doing.

The brain is not so clever really you know, it can't distinguish between real or imagined situations. If you churn over about things that aren't happy and healthful it will believe you are in that pit. If you think of happy and healthful thoughts (even if imagined)you will move towards a happy and healthful life.

I know this isn't directly related to shikantanza but it is related to the thread. And if you want it to be so it is that easy.

In gassho, Kev

[Jundo]

Hey Longdog,

Oh, hey, I am a big believer in good 'ol "positive thinking". We drop thinking in Shikantaza, but then must fill our heads with some thoughts in order to live ... and they might as well be positive. It is more Norman Vincent Peale than Dogen, but it works! If you feel grey, the world is grey ... if you feel the glass is half full and not half empty, that is just what it is!

Anyway, my teacher, Nishijima, says that Buddhism is a philosophy of optimism. For example, when we drop thoughts, what remains is not an empty nihilistic hole, but peace, freedom and possibility!

Gassho, Jundo