The beast, and other representatives of the darkness...

[Jundo]

I've been very honest here. I've laid a lot out on the table, including my alienation and yearning to find a community where I can express myself honestly among like-minded people and find some degree of acceptance. What you just said to me invites one of two responses: conform to your demands or leave. And you should know by now which of those two I would choose... so basically, in one breath, you're questioning why people are leaving, and then telling me to leave... I think you may be confused.

Hi Steph,

I am telling you to think less, talk less, quiet the mind. That is our Practice here. Are you willing to try?

Perhaps if I was more of a poet, I could convey the yearning, the hunger, the loneliness and alienation, the feeling of 'unreality' and feelings of despair and meaninglessness that sometimes creep in.

The dream you choose to dream. Give it a rest.

Gassho, Jundo

[Lynn]

Hi Steph...

*sigh Well, here's my $0.02. Remember...take it for what you paid for it!!

First: I would agree with you about "the dark side." Why we find it fascinating isn't such a mystery...we like mystery! Our lives are full of it...always have been. When we hear about the horrors of some kid just walking up and down the aisles of a university lecture hall shooting people at random, we sit up, take notice and ask a gazzillion "why's"?? We'll read all the reports about this incident, scour them, debate them, have coffee over them. I *LOVE* the TV show "Lost" for this very reason. It shows what happens when we walk out of the ordinary-ness of our lives and find ourselves 24/7 in survival mode against an unknown "evil."

You don't necessarily react that way to stories like the one about the soldier in Iraq and the dog he befriended who tracked him 70 miles after relocation just to be together. We tend to spend a moment going, "awwww" and move on to something more "interesting."

For more in depth information I'd like to direct you to two books written by Scott Peck: The Road Less Traveled and People of the Lie. Read in that order because the first book talks about the spiritual side of man and the second looks at what happens when that becomes entangled in "evil."

That said, I'm going to let you know that I've walked long lengths on the streets of the Dark Side and you know what??? After time, it got to be.....BORING! While I respect Harry's right to his views and opinions, For the most part I bleep over his posts...why? Same old, same old. A one note song. Just as boring as someone who can't come up with a more intricate debate than "just sit." Sometimes elaboration is good, sometimes it detracts. Most times we like to know that people have more dimensions to them than the "angry Buddhist" or the "utterly cooooool Buddhist." Dimensions in personality give us a richness.

My philosophy simply runs that our lives are not mysteries to be solved but to be lived, dear one. We try to solve them because we are afraid or in pain, or bored. Any number of reasons. But trying to solve for the mysteries will, ultimately, leave us dissatisfied because there are no answers.

I will echo Jundo to a point: your head is full. I've been there, too. Eventually, with enough meditation, enough opportunity to look into my mind, listen to it's interminable rambling, that got boring as well. Now, I bore myself quite easily! :lol: I'd like to invite you to stay here and continue to share and take the Jundo Challenge: see if you can limit your posts to 30 words! :shock: Hmmm...maybe I should try that myself. :?

Be well, Steph! Stick around if it seems good.

In Gassho~

*Lynn

[Jundo]

Hi Harry,

Practice with your anger all the time, truly learn about it, do not just bury it. Question authority constantly.

But this is a school and a place of peace, not a barroom or a boxing match.

Anyone who has been hanging out here this past year will attest, I am sure: I talk sharply only to folks who talk sharply to others in the community, I am not kind and gentle with people who fail to treat others kindly and gently. That's the only time you will find (and all the written archives and recordings are here more than in any other Sangha in the world).

Deal with anger all you want, keep it at the heart of your practice, wrestle with it every day. Question me and all the other clowns and bozos who claim some authority over some anthill.

But here folks will not speak sharply, they will treat each other gently and with kindness. They will follow the practices of dropping thoughts, just sitting and stilling, and abiding by the Precepts that is our Practice here ... or why are they here?

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Please read the above with a soft voice in your head, it is firm but not written with an aggressive tone.

[Gregor]

Steph,

I'll take the darkness challenge with you. I've dealt with it and still do. Before practicing Buddhism I lived a pretty unhappy, self hating life. Name a precept, I've broken it. What Buddhism has taught me is to just drop that stuff. To let go of the insecurities and expectations that breed unhappiness.

It's all in the four noble truths. Perhaps you might want to study them closely and work on applying them to your situation. If your curious about some good resources for doing this I can recommend a few good sources.

Zazen might not do it for you right now . . . do some work with the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, these are the basic and universal tenets of Buddhism.

[Stephanie]

Hi Steph...

*sigh Well, here's my $0.02. Remember...take it for what you paid for it!!

Thank you and gassho, Lynn. I am appreciative of you and KvonNJ, who are the only ones in this thread to really take up and discuss the issues I brought up. I'll keep an eye peeled for those books, they sound interesting.

I like what you said about the "dark side" being boring! That is something I've run across too in my own travels. I find parties and various other run-of-the-mill kinds of debauchery tiresome, not invigorating. But I never seem to tire of certain other "dark" interests. I look back over my life and it's a thread that traces back very far... even when I was a very young child, I gravitated to the villains in Disney movies and identified with predatory animals, even though I was a very gentle, shy, sweet child in every other way. Then when puberty hit, it was off to the races with all sorts of dark and violent music and movies, even though I continued to generally be a gentle person in demeanor. And even during my most sunny, sweet, idealistic periods, I find that the art that speaks to me is still somewhat 'dark'. It's like the proverbial black dog on one's trail...

Maybe it's nothing more mysterious than a matter of temperament, but I'm fascinated by it nonetheless. And it's come up in my spiritual search in the ways I describe above--seeing that no matter how adult or mature or enlightened a person seems to be, they've got that darkness in 'em too. It creates interesting drama when people are drawn to a person or community out of idealized notions of "love & light," only to be shocked into outrage when the underbelly is exposed. I breathe a sigh of relief when all that comes out, honestly. To me, it's just what's real.

As for being full of ideas... Yes, I am. But I no longer believe that trying to change this trait is going to lead me to wisdom, enlightenment, or even peace. If I just wanted to numb myself into a stupor, there's easier ways to do that than to sit facing the wall for endless kalpas. The only thing that really bugs me is that people assume I haven't already tried to quieten my mind. I cannot even tell you all I've done toward that end. I've hit up against a wall so many times I've just given up. I can sit sesshin for a week and my mind is still atwirl at the end. Sure, I have moments or periods of silence, but my mind is generally very active.

And at the end of the day, after trying to change it, I had to ask myself, do I really need to change this? It's one of my strengths in personal and professional relationships and decision-making. Without that restless, questioning, productive mind, I would not have experienced any of the success and adventure that I have in my life. And as for the hunger for an answer, for truth, that drives me in this restless quest, I can guarantee you that it does not come from words and phrases. It is a deep gut-hunger, and no matter how many times I think I've finally put it to rest, it comes back. I decorate it with words and phrases for the purpose of communication, but that's not how it arises.

And Jundo, all I have to say to you is: Did anyone in Brooklyn ever tell you to go take a flying... leap at a rolling donut?

[Kent]

Hello. whats the weather like were you are? :lol:

[Ankai]

It seems that, although you have claimed in the past that you want to create an open, accountable and 'democratic' sangha, you reserve the right to call this as only you see it. I don't think that's very fair or reasonable given that you, by your own admission during the Brad W episode, are prone to anger and the odd barbed outburst just like everyone else. Is it just a case that we are solely at the mercy of your values and preferences as they exist on any given day? I will understand this better maybe when you quantify your reasoning drawing on real instances of my, and/or others', behavior.

For e.g., KvonNJ's statement re. me above was pretty personal. I don't think I've been that spiky and personal about anyone here, is that a permissible statement or did it cross the line? Nothing in this respect seems clear here. (BTW, I don't really mind KvonNJ's statement. No probs).

It was spiky.
I'm not judging you, and certainly not trying to instruct you. I'm just telling you what I see... you've been going from post to post and thread to thread pulling at fibers and looking for a fight. And in the highlighted section, you are using what you obviously see as bad behavior on Jundo's part (and what he acknowledged as his own,) to justify or somehow excuse your own... so, I am wondering what the overall point is... all I'm seeing is, "Well, he did it so I can," and while yes, questioning everything, including authority, is a good thing, jumping up in peoples' faces to point out their flaws and shortcomings isn't.
Jundo's not perfect. Neither are the rest of us. I'm not saying don't question, I'm saying it can be done reasonably and respectfully, as opposed to the way you've been going about it.

[Jundo]

It only remains for us to consider just WHERE I, or others, have been unkind to the extent that it is against the ethos of the sangha.

It strikes me that a detailed consideration of where I, or others, are in breach of the hazy rule will clarify this grey area for the sangha.

I'll happily retract or delete anything which is clearly unreasonable and I will discuss anything which does not seem unreasonable with an open mind.

Dear Harry,

I am going to rely on one of those Japanese cultural traits that has come to permeate Zen Practice, and life in a Zen Sangha ... it is one of the Japanesey traditions I think is worth keeping and at the heart of our Practice ... It is group Wa, "group harmony" and balance. It is merely keeping a feeling of peace and civility and mutual respect in any group of people, be it a family, and company, a Sangha

It depends on no one person, me or anyone else ... yet is is as clear and obvious as rough seas and wind when there is disturbance in the atmosphere ... Consider it the most democratic guide, for it is truly a matter of group feeling ... it is not a perfect system, but it does keep good human relations.

In the way we must practice it in the West, it should not rule out self expression, personal honesty and such. But we need to live in the same little row boat and must be careful how we treat the other passengers.

Gassho, Jundo

[Skye]

That said, I'm going to let you know that I've walked long lengths on the streets of the Dark Side and you know what??? After time, it got to be.....BORING! While I respect Harry's right to his views and opinions, For the most part I bleep over his posts...why? Same old, same old. A one note song. Just as boring as someone who can't come up with a more intricate debate than "just sit." Sometimes elaboration is good, sometimes it detracts. Most times we like to know that people have more dimensions to them than the "angry Buddhist" or the "utterly cooooool Buddhist." Dimensions in personality give us a richness.

Thanks, I was just going to post the same thing. Middle Way anyone? Always picking the middle way in any given situation seems to be working out pretty well for me, anyway.

Steph, there's a massive body of work in the West dealing with these issues, for example, existentialism. Pick up any book by Nietzsche (I like Beyond Good & Evil, skip over the misogynist bits), Kirkegaard, Camus. I came from this tradition grappling with my own darkness. What I found was they came to essentially a very Buddhist position - that to resolve the conflict is to not resolve it, but to experience it fully, make friends and invite it for tea, but don't let it sleep on your couch. And the experience is largely beyond the ability to rationally describe. Which is why so much of it is presented in metaphors, or novels, or poetry, etc etc.

Personally I had a breakthrough when I realized that things don't have to be rational to make sense. We are so conditioned in the West to worship at the alter of logic. However as Hume pointed out, "reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions". We never construct an argument except to prove something for another reason. Reason is another construction of our minds, as is common sense. However that does not necessarily mean we are now in the realm of "blind faith" - there is something else which can only be pointed at and I have only had the slightest glimmer of but I am dedicated to pursuing in this tradition. It's transcendental. I'm sure you know what I'm blabbing about, or you probably wouldn't be here.

I see every serious seeker of nearly any religion as grappling with this same issue. There are many brilliant minds in the history of Christianity, Islam, Brahmanism, etc etc that have tried to express it. Personally I had a deep need to, and continue to, research and explore these intellectual gymnastics. But at least now I realize that it is both profound, and meaningless. Just like sitting.

Bla bla bla

[Ankai]

Hi, Kvon.

I simply see Jundo's behavoir as 'bad' in that instance by his own standards. Its no big deal, I hardly think I'm much of a moral idealist.

All this talk of 'The Dark Side' is a bit absolutist don't you think? Surely there's many shades in between in reality?

I think you are completely missing my point, and If I want couciling I'll go to a professional. No big deal.

Regards,

H.


Harry, I understand your point perfectly. I happen to disagree with it and with the antagonistic way you're presenting it. You may have a valid point somewhere, but it's getting lost in your aggression. But, if you're happy with people only noticing the way you express yourself and allowing it to distract from whatever value there may be in what you have to say, you're right... no big deal.
Peace.

[Stephanie]

Thanks, I was just going to post the same thing. Middle Way anyone? Always picking the middle way in any given situation seems to be working out pretty well for me, anyway.

Steph, there's a massive body of work in the West dealing with these issues, for example, existentialism. Pick up any book by Nietzsche (I like Beyond Good & Evil, skip over the misogynist bits), Kirkegaard, Camus. I came from this tradition grappling with my own darkness. What I found was they came to essentially a very Buddhist position - that to resolve the conflict is to not resolve it, but to experience it fully, make friends and invite it for tea, but don't let it sleep on your couch. And the experience is largely beyond the ability to rationally describe. Which is why so much of it is presented in metaphors, or novels, or poetry, etc etc.

Personally I had a breakthrough when I realized that things don't have to be rational to make sense. We are so conditioned in the West to worship at the alter of logic. However as Hume pointed out, "reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions". We never construct an argument except to prove something for another reason. Reason is another construction of our minds, as is common sense. However that does not necessarily mean we are now in the realm of "blind faith" - there is something else which can only be pointed at and I have only had the slightest glimmer of but I am dedicated to pursuing in this tradition. It's transcendental. I'm sure you know what I'm blabbing about, or you probably wouldn't be here.

I see every serious seeker of nearly any religion as grappling with this same issue. There are many brilliant minds in the history of Christianity, Islam, Brahmanism, etc etc that have tried to express it. Personally I had a deep need to, and continue to, research and explore these intellectual gymnastics. But at least now I realize that it is both profound, and meaningless. Just like sitting.

Bla bla bla

Skye!!

Thank you and gassho for this lovely post.

I have found much guidance and comfort in the work of the existentialists. Camus's Myth of Sisyphus helped me through a suicidal period in my early to mid-teens. Even if I didn't get 100% of his philosophy at the time, just encountering a writer who grappled with these themes and saw the problem of suicide as a

REMIANDER DELETED BY THE DRIVER

[Stephanie]

Alright Jundo, you win. You've silenced me and there's nothing I can do about it.

I'm sure you think you're teaching me some sort of profound Zen lesson, but all I think you're doing is proving that all your years of zazen haven't made much of a dent on that inner Type A control freak.

You don't like my words and ideas; you think I'm too intellectual; that's fine. But are my only options here to accept your word as gospel and do what you say, or leave? If you really want me to leave, I will; what can I do? Because if I can't be myself here, or share the real struggles I'm going through--however illegitimate you see them as being--there's no reason for me to post here.

[Jun]

Everyone has a say so long as it is in accordance with the master.

[Jundo]

Hi Stephanie,

I did not silence you. You are free to say whatever you would like, and I won't stop you.

I would like you, however, to do it in a few lines, and with a deep respect for the silence that surrounds it.

But within those line, please say whatever you would like.

Gassho, Jundo

PS- We all need to remember this value of silence to one degree or another.

[Eika]

Hi, Stephanie.
I sense a great deal of frustration on your part . . . you are entitled to that, I think. However, I will suggest that your opinion of Jundo strikes me strangely. When someone comes to a teacher and his/her house (zendo), the implicit understanding is that the student is coming to that teacher because of what that teacher is offering. If the teacher suggests rowing as an antidote to your particular illness, then I think that you ought to give rowing a try for a while before you become angry with the teacher for not giving you the teaching you wanted. Secondly, I will say that there have been times when I have wanted to respond to your posts but have been daunted by the sheer volume of ideas to which I would have to respond. Brevity and staying on topic are not your strong points (and I truly mean that as nicely as I can), so I understand how a teacher might have trouble helping out. Lastly, my personal opinion is that Zen is not a self-help, pseudo-psychological system. It is something else . . . a bit of religion, a bit of psychology, a bit of philosophy, etc. My impression from your posts is that you want Zen to do more for you than it can (and all of this before you give the basic teachings of this particular teacher, Jundo, a try). Jundo is not perfect, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I sense little patience on your part regarding the teacher's instructions.
I hope that my sincere effort to speak honestly does not create more strife in this forum, but I felt that one of the things a sangha does is speak openly about behavior and speech within it.
With respect,
Bill