A Nietzsche quote about thinking and ego

[Nameless]

You need to get a cat.

Gassho,

Lee

Haha! Already do.

Gassho, John

[Jinyo]

An old Zen story ...



Some comments on a version of this story by our friend Nonin of Nebraska Zen Center ...

http://www.prairiewindzen.org/emptying_your_cup.html

Gassho, J

Thank you,



Willow

[Taikyo]

As a 'university professor of Philosophy' I teach Nietzshe to my students but not Zen, so here I keep quiet and drink my tea!

Gassho
Taikyo

PS If anyone is interested there is a book by Robert G. Morrison entitled Nietzsche and Buddhism.

[Neo]

Think about why you posted at the first place.

[Jishin]

Think about why you posted at the first place.

I don't know and that's OK! Let's have some tea and sit for a while.

Gassho, Jishin

[Myosha]

Listen to the teaching without trying to make it conform to your own self-centered viewpoint; otherwise, you will be unable to understand what is said.... Thank you, Master(s) Gassho, Myosha

[alan.r]

Hi Neo,



Actually both would be wrong!
This is NOT an either-or-question.
You need to get both aspects under one roof.

On the one hand you need your ego to live in this world - you could not "function" without it.
However, you should not take things (and neither yourself) too seriously.

This is the big cosmic joke: You are actually everything that is, but at the same time live as a separate, individual self through which IT/the Tao/the cosmos/God/[please fill in your favourite expression that like the others won't be able to describe the mystery anyway] realises itself.
How funny, tragic, awesome, ordinary and extraordinary that is!

In any case the first thing you must do is to fully accept yourself. And from that basis you can try to change your "little self" - but from a state of acceptance!
If you completely gave up your ego you'd become a robot.
However, at the same time you need to realise you are much more, and that all of this is just a great show - in fact the biggest and grandest show of all.
You are stuck in this "dream" - so make the best out of it for yourself and everyone else. But at the same time you should act with the knowledge that it is in fact a "dream".
Yes, there is birth and death - but no, actually there is not.

You must know that in the long run happiness (not the superficial one, but more a constant state of being) can only come from within - never from outside factors.
Because you cannot control those outside factors. If your hapiness depends on money, power, fame or recognition by others, etc. disappointment is to be expected.
If your happiness comes from within, from a contentment with what is, being happy and grateful for the mere fact of being alive, everywhere is your home, you see others as yourself and "true happiness" can settle.

This is not a one-time-thing though - it is a constant practice.


Gassho,

Daitetsu

Yeah, this is right on.

I've read a lot of philosophy, and a lot of Nietzsche and quite a bit of Sartre (though not his big giant book). In any case, there are similarities between these guys and Buddhism, and I personally don't find Nietzsche or Sartre to be nihilistic - I think that's an interpretation that they're often boxed into.

More importantly though is this, at least for me: reading these philosophers was great, and sometimes fun, and sometimes made me feel awful, and etc, but the thing that I noticed, pretty quickly, was that with all of them, there was nothing to do. There was just more thinking, more reading, like an infinite regress. An almost purely intellectual thing. Insofar that thinking is an act, that's pretty much all that is there with these guys, these great thinkers - think, consider, and there's even an element of "believe" what they're saying. But with Buddhism, there is something to do; there is physical activity (and also mental activity) to be taken, which is zazen. The problem with these guys, to me, is that they do a great job of talking about the world, of trying to interpret it, but much of it is unhelpful in every day life. Seriously, how is Nietzsche's idea of an Unbermensch going to be helpful in every day life? I mean, it's a great idea, but many people disagree about what exactly he meant by it. How can anything be helpful in every day life, in concrete reality, if people can't even agree on the meaning of it? Same with the "will to power" - a lot of different interpretations. In the end, you're not running with Nietzsche or Sartre, it's just you and this world that is you, that is living through you, that you are living through.

Zazen is doing the dropping of "finding meaning" in the world and "interpreting the world." By dropping all that, we find there is no need for meaning or not, no need for interpretation. Though meaning and interpretation can be fun, the trick is not getting tied up into trying to figure it all out - pulling our hair out about the meaning of it all. Zazen is not about stopping and not advancing and not being creative and not being intellectual - it's about opening to whatever we are and letting our intellect and creativity be what they are, freely, unimpinged by existentialism and Nietzsche or father figures or culture (as much as this is possible), etc.

Gassho

[Rich]

So in not studying philosophy, it sounds like I didn't miss much -)



Kind regards. /\

[Fugu]

Neo:

btw, great thread. Thanks for starting it! I love this kind of stuff.......

Gassho,

Lee

[Nameless]

So in not studying philosophy, it sounds like I didn't miss much -)

Just a headache and blurry vision Rich. Oh, and of course the million different ways to describe a tree without seeing one.

Gassho, John

[Jundo]

Zazen is doing the dropping of "finding meaning" in the world and "interpreting the world." By dropping all that, we find there is no need for meaning or not, no need for interpretation. Though meaning and interpretation can be fun, the trick is not getting tied up into trying to figure it all out - pulling our hair out about the meaning of it all. Zazen is not about stopping and not advancing and not being creative and not being intellectual - it's about opening to whatever we are and letting our intellect and creativity be what they are, freely, unimpinged by existentialism and Nietzsche or father figures or culture (as much as this is possible), etc.

Gassho

Hmmm. Well, let me perhaps advise to drop even that, Alan! I think you mean that each has its place, but do not be their prisoner all tangled up.

There is absolutely nothing wrong about being interested in Nietzsche, Existentialism or Western Philosophy while Practicing "Zen", no more than there is anything wrong with throwing oneself diligently into gardening, cooking eggs or reading Agatha Christie mysteries while Practicing "Zen". Each is lovely, and when tending roses in the garden do so with great energy ... when reading Nietzsche, just do that!

Of course, we have our Shikantaza in which ... while sitting ... we drop all thought of Plato, Nietzsche, roses and eggs and Agatha Christie ... all to realize a Realize which fully transcends even while dancing all that!

But rising from the cushion, get back to the philosophizing, mystery solving and rose pruning should one wish! Lovely! There may be times to stop, times to advance, pull one's hair out, be creative or intellectual. Have at it! It is Buddha pulling out Buddha's Hair!

Know those times when we pick up the book or garden sheers, and those times when we put them down and head for the Zafu. Perhaps one will then sense a Reality where there is Plato and Nietzsche and roses and crab grass and eggs and Miss Marple, ... a Reality where Plato is found in every egg, where advancing is sitting perfectly still and Miss Marple tells us who killed Neitzsche. ... a Reality in which every Mystery is solved as so many mysteries remain!

I find great meaning and direction in life through Zazen. How to describe the feeling?

For me, life is something like being born on a mysterious sailboat sailing on the sea. Through this Practice, one finds that the key point is in the sailing, not the destination ... that there are good directions and bad (those that head into storms and onto rocks, those that go with the wind) ... and that water, sun and wind, wheel and mast, storms and clear skies, sails and this sailor are each separate, yet each one. Very Existential! (And there are even times to sit on the deck with a good book of German Philosophy!)

Good Sailing!

That is enough direction and meaning for me.

Gassho, J

[Myozan Kodo]

"Not knowing is most intimate."
Gassho
Myozan

[Mp]

For me, life is something like being born on a mysterious sailboat sailing on the sea. Through this Practice, one finds that the point is in the sailing, not the destination ... that there are good directions and bad (those that head into storms and onto rocks, those that go with the wind) ... and that water, sun and wind, wheel and mast, storms and clear skies, sails and this 　sailor are each separate, yet each one.

Beautifully put Jundo, thank you! =)

Gassho
Shingen

[alan.r]

Hmmm. Well, let me perhaps advise to drop even that, Alan! I think you mean that each has its place, but do not be their prisoner all tangled up.

There is absolutely nothing wrong about being interested in Nietzsche, Existentialism or Western Philosophy while Practicing "Zen", no more than there is anything wrong with throwing oneself diligently into gardening, cooking eggs or reading Agatha Christie mysteries while Practicing "Zen". Each is lovely, and when tending roses in the garden do so with great energy ... when reading Nietzsche, just do that!

Of course, we have our Shikantaza in which ... while sitting ... we drop all thought of Plato, Nietzsche, roses and eggs and Agatha Christie ... all to realize a Realize which fully transcends even while dancing all that!

But rising from the cushion, get back to the philosophizing, mystery solving and rose pruning should one wish! Lovely! There may be times to stop, times to advance, pull one's hair out, be creative or intellectual. Have at it! It is Buddha pulling out Buddha's Hair!

Know those times when we pick up the book or garden sheers, and those times when we put them down and head for the Zafu. Perhaps one will then sense a Reality where there is Plato and Nietzsche and roses and crab grass and eggs and Miss Marple, ... a Reality where Plato is found in every egg, where advancing is sitting perfectly still and Miss Marple tells us who killed Neitzsche. ... a Reality in which every Mystery is solved as so many mysteries remain!

I find great meaning and direction in life through Zazen. How to describe the feeling?

For me, life is something like being born on a mysterious sailboat sailing on the sea. Through this Practice, one finds that the point is in the sailing, not the destination ... that there are good directions and bad (those that head into storms and onto rocks, those that go with the wind) ... and that water, sun and wind, wheel and mast, storms and clear skies, sails and this 　sailor are each separate, yet each one. Very Existential! (And there are even times to sit on the deck with a good book of German Philosophy!)

Good Sailing!

That is enough direction and meaning for me.

Gassho, J

Yes, definitely! This is better expressed and exactly what I was going for. And you've hit it right on: "not be their prisoner all tangled up." For me, personally (and I sensed this with others in this thread), for a while (and it still occurs sometimes) I thought that if I read everything, all these philosophers, I'd really figure it out. I'd really get it. That seems sort of funny to me now, but I think I really believed this. And thinking that way led to some serious depressive tendencies because I'd get caught up in thoughts and a lot of other things. One of the things, the biggest things I've learned from you and Taigu, as well as many people here, is that studying philosophy is great, fun, and can be taken seriously, but there's a way to hold it all lightly, gently, and with some humor - take it seriously without taking it too seriously in other words.

Thanks Jundo.

Gassho