A Nietzsche quote about thinking and ego

[Neo]

Hello guys!

So I'm (trying) to read through Nietzsche's "beoynd good and evil", for me it's a hard task. Most of the time it feels like the old man is speakling in pure riddles.

Anyway, I came through a passage where he is talking about thoughts and ego and I'd like to share it with you all.

"With regard to the superstitions of logicians, I shall never tire of emphasizing a small, terse fact, which is unwillingly recognized by these credulous minds—namely, that a thought comes when "it" wishes, and not when "I" wish; so that it is a PERVERSION of the facts of the case to say that the subject "I" is the condition of the predicate "think." ONE thinks; but that this "one" is precisely the famous old "ego," is, to put it mildly, only a supposition, an assertion, and assuredly not an "immediate certainty."

This seems pretty legit to me, what do you all say?

Nietzsche is said to be one of the first philosophers that fits into the 'philosophy' existentialism. And it's very non-dogmatic. I'm sure u all know about it. It feels like its a step into the right direction from westerners, a step into the right direction, to the east.

[Jundo]

Hi Neo,

Hmmm.

Maybe we could ask where did Nietzsche come from, where did he go? When he was not thinking? When I was thinking?

When Nietzsche is not thinking of me, where do I go? When I am not thinking of Nietzsche, where does Nietzsche go?

I sometimes describe aspects of Zen Practice as existentialism ... living life as it comes ... lives being lived by life ... life living life as it comes ... yet with a rather Positive twist for all that (none of that bleak nihilism of some of Sartre.)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11888-The-answer-is-probably-not-42%21&p=120234&viewfull=1#post120234

(Feeling that especially today, as my children's eyes, my wife and my eyes, are filled with tears for our little cat who died today).

Gassho, J

[Neo]

Jundo, I just read 'opening the hand of thought' some time ago. And it strikes me, some of the similarities that Uchiyama shares with some of the existential teachers. He talks about having no control over very much things, like birth place. You get thrown into this world (Heidegger), and there's a lot of things you cannot change, but still you have some personal freedom to create a life.

I'm sure I need to read more, and above all, I need to sit more. But I'm sometimes scared to the nihilistic feelings I get from reading some dharma-teachings. Especially listening to hardcore spiritual guys like Tolle or Adyashanti. I still want to create, make something of my life. I'm sure I just got the wrong understanding about Buddhism but. Buddha did something with his life, he created a well structured 'organisation' - something that became a world religion.

Sorry about all rubbish, I just have alot of my mind. I can get no clarity about how to live my life. The Western ego on the one hand, how all my friends (20-30 years old) live here in Sweden, Buddha on the other hand, how I deep down feel like the only way to lasting peace is to be lived.

[Neo]

.. and I'm sorry about your cat. I'm sure it will be a great teaching to your child about the impermancence of the world though.

[Jundo]

Hi Neo,

Buddhism is not a pessimistic philosophy, and is about sitting and living right on the vibrant edge of life. It is not about suffering ... it is about Liberation from Suffering.

It is at moments like this that I know. I am sitting here with a totally broken heart and tears in my eyes (I have had little animals in the past, yet never a connection in my heart like with this silly one) ... yet, at the same time, as tears fall, there is a smile on my lips and a sensation of Peace. Peace as the broken pieces. Liberation from Suffering ... even though not from a life's pain.

Don't be unclear, don't be nihilistic. Be clear, be creative, be alive. Everyday ... happy day, sad day, good day, bad day ... Everyday is a Good Day.



Gassho, J

[Neo]

I know it's not! But Schopenhauer's (the Western buddha) philosophy is said to be pessimistic, only in a Western view. But according to how I'm raised, in this capitalistic society, it is pessimistic, from this view. And it's the wrong view! But I'm raised this way, it's hard to see through the Illusions of needing to 'BECOME SOMEBODY' when that's how I'm hard wired to live.

I will sit today. For your little cat and for trying to drop the nihilistic feelings.

thanks.

[Liang]

(none of that bleak nihilism of some of Sartre.)

Jundo (or anyone else), I had a side question about "existentialism" in relation to the idea of non-attainment and just sitting. I used to be a big Sartre and Kierkegaard fan and saw the primary purpose of human existence to find meaning. The problem that I see now though is that any meaning you find/create in your mind is going to be unfullfilling. Either it will be too attainable such as becoming a doctor (then once you get your degrees and years later what do you do?) or not attainable enough such as living up perfectly to religious laws. Trying to chase meaning is going to let you down in the end and only by letting go of the need of meaning and letting life and you be as they are can you have fulfillment. Is this on the right track?

Neo: Nietzsche is definitely found of riddles and odd analogies. That's why he is so often mistaken for being a nihilist or racist and so on. I've read beyond good and evil and the genealogy of morals. We had a philosophy professor who claimed to have correct interpretation of his writings and everyone else was wrong and I don't think he was right Very tough and interesting stuff. Have you read Thus Spoke Zarathustra? I love it as its very poetic, but don't understand much of it all! I'm interested in what you guys have to say.

Gassho, Fred

[Neo]

hello Fred, I'll just call you that.

Im stuck between these 'camps', the buddhistic and the existentional. How about non-attachment just sitting and be happy, still doing something with your life. Becoming a doctor to help other people, learning to play guitar for the social pleasures? For me becoming a teacher to be able to help young people on the 'right' track in life. Not to do things for the glory of it, just because you enjoy it.

Im trying hard to let buddhistic philosophy merge with existential thoughts.

Nietzsche was nihilistic a period of his life. Later on he described nihilism as a 'pathway' to the ubermensch, or the higher man. For what I've come to understand.

As I said, I'm reading beyond good and evil now, and it's really hard. I'm sure I will have to read it again in the future, some parts is very hard to grasp for me. He's making fun about old philosophers like Kant, Plato etc. and you will have to have a great understanding about those guys philosophies as well to get along :-) I've not read any original work by Nietzsche, this is my first. Tough I've read some books about his life and about his world. And I've watched endless videos about him and existentialism on youtube.

It feels like we are into the same kind of though process here. How long have you been into zen (buddhism)?

[Jundo]

I believe that Zen is Meaning. In Zazen, we sit as Total Meaning, All Attained.

Hard to explain in words, but a sense of Complete Fulfillment and Being in the Right Place and Time!

That being said, Zen "sitting there" is not "just sitting there" ... and we get up from the cushion and get on with life.

How to say it? Suppose one does want to become a doctor: It is a hard climb up the mountain to get there ... bottom of the mountain is Right Place and Time, middle of the mountain is Right Place and Time, top of the mountain is Right Place and Time.

Top, middle, bottom of mountain all Buddha ... all Buddha climbing Buddha.

If starting toward being a doctor ... just be that, Totally Fulfilled.

If already a doctor ... just be that Totally Fulfulled (Totally Fulfilled ... Big "T" & "F" ... even if and when the career sometimes proves totally unfulfilling! )

If (like me) never going to be a doctor or to have any chance of being one ... just be that Totally Fulfulled.

If broken hearted ... Totally Fulfilled.

Meaning and Fulfillment are all around and everywhere ... fulfilled or unfulfilled.

Gassho, J

[Neo]

broken, young and poor. Keep beeing broken and poor and fulfilled with that? I was at the edge of the 'broken and poor' mountain at the right time.

Damnit, somehow I just can't seem to let go of my desires tonight, even though I know them to be illusions. It's late in cold Sweden, I have to sleep.

Thanks for your poetic answer Jundo, It helps even though my attitude is a bit low these days.

[Jundo]

broken, young and poor. Keep beeing broken and poor and fulfilled with that? I was at the edge of the 'broken and poor' mountain at the right time.

Well, keep working for some goal. Keep looking for someone to love. I can't promise things will get better, but good chance if you keep your eyes and heart open.

Be Fulfilled even when life seems unfulfilling, even when Buddhism and Buddhist Teachers seem full of shit, and your heart overflows with longing and dissatisfaction (being "BIG F" Fulfilled and "small u" unfulfilled at once). I hope you become old and content.

Gassho, J

[Nameless]

Thank you for the posts Jundo, and Metta to you and your family. A pet's passing can hit just as hard as when a person dies.

Traces of Zen can be found in many philosophies. Existentialists eluded to it. Descartes did also at times, as well as the Stoics of ancient Greece. Odds are it's the universality of the Eightfold path, the Three Marks of Existence and Zen's emphasis on acceptance and mindfulness which have made it partially accessible to thinkers throughout the ages . So, philosophers have picked up on bits and pieces of the puzzle, filling in the blanks with their own views. A profound difference you'll see between Zen and existentialism Neo is in regards to self. Existentialists raise the self up to the level of a god, believing that a fully realized person can be the master of all. That is very "un-Zen." In Buddhism the self is said of course to be and not be simultaneously. We can improve ourselves, but there is nothing to improve. Hume and Berkeley touched on the philosophy of no-self with immaterialism (once again, bits and pieces).

As it's been said, existentialism has a close relationship with nihilism, which Buddha gravely spoke against as incomplete, just as eternalism is incomplete. Eternalism believes in, "is," nihilism believes, "is not." Zen: "is and is not." So, from a westerner's point of view Zen could be seen as a marriage between immaterialism and Gestalt. A kind of, "There is no whole, and it's greater than the sum of it's parts." Even that's not quite right though. Zen is Zen. The Middle Way.

Gassho, John

[Liang]

hello Fred, I'll just call you that.

Neo, Please do. I was trying to be too clever when I made my username and have been relieved to find a minimal amount of koans and head smacking here.

Jundo, thank you, yes fulfillment is not complacency. I have more questions about this in regards to moral action and about sitting versus seeking Satori, but I think Ango and preparing for Jukai would be a good time to go deeper into those things. I need more practice in sitting before I can tackle them. "Meaning and Fulfillment are all around and everywhere ... fulfilled or unfulfilled" is really profound and I will definitely try to sit with that for a while.

P.S. I am grateful to have a teacher willing to share not only his wisdom and insight but also share with us in his losses. I will be thinking of you, your family, and your cat.

Neo: I've only been studying Zen for a month. I think you are smarter than me if you even understand a little bit of Heidegger, but maybe if I had actually gone to class I'd be happy to PM and chat about philosophy anytime, but the short version of my journey is that I was a devout Christian (enroute to the ministry at one point) and gravitated towards a Christian existentialism best embodied by Kierkegaard and like he talks taking a blind leap, felt that I had to have faith that there was a meaning (God) in this apparently meaningless world. Problem was that Christianity is such a conversion religion and overtime the faith waned and I found myself just not knowing. So I was agnostic/philosophical Taoist for a while until I found Zen which embraces that not-knowing!

Gassho, Fred

[Tiwala]

Hi Fred and Neo,

I suggest picking up Hee Jin Kim's Mystical Realist. It is a clear exposition of Dogen's view of Zen without much Zen speak. It may be easier to digest for you guys interested in philosophy. As a non-humanities major, I found the text a tad bit difficult to read, but very fulfilling. One passage I remember very clearly was that to Dogen, shikantaza was the flesh and blood manifestation for his search for the meaning of life, which he ironically found to be already enough.

There's so much more stuff there that helped me ease into the Soto way of doing things. However, practice is eternal. So musn't ever forget that... unless you're already sitting. In which case you just sit.

P.s.
How do you think not thinking?
Non-thinking
How do you desire not desire?
Non-desire

Gassho, Ben

[Neo]

Thanks for your answer nameless.

I'm reading right now about existentialism and I'm trying to develop my own philosophy with zen (buddha) and the western way of 'making something of your self', trying to help this world out somehow, leaving a mark. I think they are compatible to combine with each other. At least maybe at the end of my studies, I will on my own see that I was wrong/right. I somehow really like Nietzsche's concept of growth, will to power, becoming who you are and 'find what you love and die for it', and just sit in the midst of this ride of impermanence, lol. just let life live me..

Fred, I've been studying Buddhism for many years now. Though I'm bad at the sitting part, it comes in periods. But I really feel deep down that the non-attachment aspect is the right one for lasting peace due to the impermancence in the world. So to become someone, do something, and expect everlasting happiness at the end ain't gonna do. Just do it for the doing and the compassion it bring others, and always set new and more goals. Just as the famous zen-statement 'When you get to the top of the mountain, keep climbing'.