If everything has Buddha-nature...

[Ishin]

Thank you Taigu, Jundo and all who contribute. I really think these discussion are going to cause me to buy aspirin. I was tempted to add to this discussion by asking the question:

Exactly where is this nothing? I can't find it.

But then I thought I had better... oh darn it.. I had to go and ask it anyway.


Gassho
C

[Mp]

Mu

Gassho
Shingen

[Taigu]

Horribly deluded, cannot put it a better way and yet, like all of you...

Gassho

Taigu

[MyoHo]

You guys! Wanted to give a sensible and balanced reply. Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NsK_Ovp0y0&feature=player_detailpage#t=33

AWESOMENESS!!!!!!!

Nine bows

E.

[Myosha]

Some know -

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift. . .the rational mind is a faithful servant. Society honors the servant and has forgotten the the gift."

Big Al Jones ( aka Albert Einstein )

[Jundo]

Some know -

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift. . .the rational mind is a faithful servant. Society honors the servant and has forgotten the the gift."

Big Al Jones ( aka Albert Einstein )

Einstein probably never said that, but the words are well taken nonetheless.

this saying was derived from the words of Bob Samples who was presenting his individual analysis of Albert Einstein. The phrasing evolved over time, and by 1997 someone had placed quotation marks around the descendant expression and had assigned the words to Albert Einstein. However, the ascription to Einstein is spurious.
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/09/18/intuitive-mind/

[Daitetsu]

Hi Steven,

If everything has Buddha-nature...

then does nothing have Buddha-nature?

As soon as you talk about every - thing, you have already created a separation.

This is an awesome thread, thanks a lot for all contributing to it.

Gassho,

Timo

[Myosha]

Thank you Jundo.

What I MEANT was the intuitive mind is a gift so don't honor. . .uhmm. . the rational because a gift horses' mouth is something not to be looked at. . .rationally.

Glad that's cleared up.


Gassho,
Edward

[Steven]

It's amazing what can be learned from asking one question. Thanks for everyone's response: especially our teachers!

Gassho,
Steven

[Risho]

This is an awesome post. To me, the magic of Dogen, and of Taigu and Jundo's teaching which are really pointing to the same "it non-itness" is that you think you've got it, but you don't have it. It's slippery; nothing to grab. When I try to intellectualize the teachings or add them to my Zen resume, they elude me and I can no longer remember what I've "gotten". But when I drop that grabbing, then it just is it and I see what it is... I don't know, now I've lost it. lol

Anyway, thank you for the question and teachings.. So many good topics here lately.

Gassho,

Risho

[Heishu]

Yeah, thanks for asking that question. Had you not chosen to open this thread I would have not read this wonderful line.

Jundo said...

[The answer he found is what we discuss here all the time: Although we are already "Buddha", one needs both to realize that fact (understand it in and as one's bones) and to realize that fact (make it real through our practice, bring it to life in all of life by how we behave, free of Greed, Anger and Ignorance).]

Off the cushion or on the cushion life goes on. What we make of that life reveals our Buddha nature.

Gassho,
Heishu

[sittingzen]

Beautiful thread.

_/\_

[MyoHo]

Taigu:

once you sit on Buddha s seat, you see the culprit right in the face ( something is missing) as long as you sit in the culprit s sit , you are drunk with Buddhas and ancestors ( it is already sufficient ).

Jundo:

True Enlightenment is finally to see that the clear open light AND the dance of twirling dust particles are One beyond One. Be at home in the real life room where dust is kicked up because that is what happens when life is lived. Light and Dust are not one, not two. Do not seek some barren "white room" where all is too pure. Of course, one should keep the dust reasonably down to a healthy level (please don't live in a mental pig sty), and avoid the truly toxic dust of greed, anger, jealousy and all the rest. Do not live as a prisoner trapped in unhealthy air pollution! The pure and impure is Thoroughly Pure, yet we seek to keep the impure thoughts in healthy check so to realize such.

How could I ever leave the culprits seat? Being alive means kicking up dust for myself and others. We say not two, but if I hit my head you wont get a bump on your head. All we can do is trying to keep the dust in check but for whom sake? My own? What use is this to all of you out there?

That just may be what is bothering me. We sit, work hard and talk Dharma but I'm missing THE GETTING IT OUT THERE! Do we really only sit for ourselves, for our own enlightenment and training/ learning ourselves in how WE deal with this world for the short while we are actually here? Maybe some of the more talented ones in our sangha will reach that certain point someday. Great! But to what end? What use?

What do I tell that hungry homeless guy at the street corner or that orphan girl dying of cancer all alone in the hospital? What do I effectively do for them, when sitting hours and hours working on "me, myself and I" in my little shed in the back of my garden?

That's what is missing. Self sacrifice, compassion and love for all other beings IN ACTION. Living Zen, out there in the the trenches of Samsara for the sake of you without thinking of "me".

Saying they are not two but one is too easy. I'm lacking and found the question:

HOW?

Please be gentle, this is now keeping me awake at night ( not kidding)

Gassho

E.

[Jundo]

That just may be what is bothering me. We sit, work hard and talk Dharma but I'm missing THE GETTING IT OUT THERE! Do we really only sit for ourselves, for our own enlightenment and training/ learning ourselves in how WE deal with this world for the short while we are actually here? Maybe some of the more talented ones in our sangha will reach that certain point someday. Great! But to what end? What use?

What do I tell that hungry homeless guy at the street corner or that orphan girl dying of cancer all alone in the hospital? What do I effectively do for them, when sitting hours and hours working on "me, myself and I" in my little shed in the back of my garden?

That's what is missing. Self sacrifice, compassion and love for all other beings IN ACTION. Living Zen, out there in the the trenches of Samsara for the sake of you without thinking of "me".

So, if it bothers you, get your ass up off the Zafu after your few minutes of sitting and DO SOMETHING TO HELP! How the hell does sitting Zazen prevent that? How the heck would your little time of sitting each day interfere with your doing so? (In fact, it should make you better equipped to do so, more than not sitting or using the time some other way like watching tv or playing a video game).

Before sitting Zazen. there are hungry homeless dudes and cancer kids.

Sitting Zazen, there are no hungry homeless dudes or cancer kids.

After sitting Zazen, there are hungry homeless dudes and cancer kids again.

All the bowing and sitting won't do a damn thing to get a hungry man a sandwich or to cure cancer, not any more than choosing to spend the time watching TV or walking on the beach will feed the hungry or heal the diseases. What the heck do you feel that your Zazen will do for them, or for you? If it bothers you so much, start handing out tuna melts and writing checks to charity.

The most that Zazen might do is let you also taste a realm where there is no lack and no disease, but that does not mean that we don't live in a world filled with lack and disease (for both Truths are True At Once). The most Zazen can do in that case is as described in the essays at the following link ... a bit of care for the caregivers, and a taste of "Saying Yes" even as our heart cries No No NO! So, in that way Zazen does help our work to feed the hungry and cure the disease.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11413-Two-Wonderful-Articles-Care-for-Caregivers-Saying-Yes

You seem to feel disappointed that sitting has not turned you into a saint yet. Buddhist Practice might make one somewhat softer hearted and more compassionate, but it is unlikely to make someone a saint who doesn't have the makings of one. You seem kind of confused as if you expected it to do so. Even the Buddha did not spend much time feeding the poor (nor did Dogen for that matter). I did not see either of them start soup kitchens, or open public health clinics. They seemed most directly concerned with keeping their own monks fed each day from donations. Next, they seemed most concerned with finding a cure for Dukkha, not a cure for poverty or death. A cure for Dukkha is not a cure for poverty, old age and death ... just a way to see through it all, be one with it all, allow it all. (Oh, they both made some statements about charity, as we saw during this week's Teisho ... but also knew that they really were limited in their power to fix Samsara). ++

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11434-Oct-4th-5th-2013-OUR-MONTHLY-4-hour-ZAZENKAI%21-Marking-Global-Days-of-Service&p=111346&viewfull=1#post111346

The Buddha never found a cure for disease, death, hunger, poverty. He knew that Samsara was kinda hopeless. That is why Buddhists talk a lot about getting the heck out of Samsara to the Pure Land, making the escape to Nirvana or some such. The most Buddha did was let us see a bit through the lack and death to a realm without lack or death. However, some of us believe that, maybe someday, we can bring a bit of the Pure Land/Kingdom of Heaven right down here to earth.

Kannon becomes real when we use our own hands and eyes to make her move and see.

We say not two, but if I hit my head you wont get a bump on your head.

Saying "not two" is not saying that we are one and the same! Well, it is ... but it is not. I think you misunderstand.

There is an old Koan that goes ... "When Jundo catches cold, Enkyo sneezes". That's a fact.

But of course, when Jundo catches cold, Jundo sneezes ... not Enkyo (unless he caught it from sitting to close to Jundo's sneeze). Both Truths are True At Once. The most Enkyo can do in practical terms is get off his butt and offer Jundo a tissue.

Gassho, J

++ I recently heard of Theravada Practitioners who actually oppose engaging in charitable work in this world (not all Theravada Buddhists, of course, just some). Their reasoning? Anything that makes Samsara easier and more pleasant for people makes their desire to escape the world and reach Nirvana less likely. I can't buy such thinking. One can sit or not sit ... do charitable work or not do it. Up to you, but I recommend doing it.

PS - Please give a listen to the Talk during this week's Zazenkai, which was on the topic of charity ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11434-Oct-4th-5th-2013-OUR-MONTHLY-4-hour-ZAZENKAI%21-Marking-Global-Days-of-Service

[Ishin]

If you stop bumping your head at least the medical bills won't be paid by me. . Since I have started my practice in "just sitting" I have stopped using caffeine, I have stopped drinking in excess, I have stopped wasting time on the internet, I have become a better father, husband, professional. In returning to my original nature again and again I take that self/ nonself out into the world . It does make a difference all around me. Also I don't think our teachers would ever say, NOT to take your practice out to the trenches. I have donated 5 large boxes of food and what will be about 400$ to local charity because of my participation here. I don't think anyone is suggesting to hide from other's suffering. Someone keeps insisting we get dirty.

Gassho