Ordination

[Rev R]

Heya Jundo,

Yes, but ... (our Practice is filled with lots of "yes, buts ..."). I am with you completely. But, on the other hand, it reminds me of the time I tried to tell my wife that we should skip the wedding, and just run down to city hall, cause it is all the same thing. I was right, of course, but also .... yes, but.

Ok let's see.

In the case of the wedding you have two routes, both lead to the same end result, marriage. One road is a simple come as you are affair maybe a couple of close friends to serve as witnesses. The other is a grand spectacle, costumes, food, music, ritual, decorations, and other assorted what-nots.

At the end of the day it still boils down to what the main participants truly want out of the experience of getting married.

But we all know that memories are also made at the reception afterwards...and there are no rules against having a blow out after a trip to the courthouse.


Hey Will

Who certified Shakyamuni Buddha, right?

Well he indeed certified himself, but (ha! I just did it too) one could also say that we as followers of the Way also certify him when we choose to undertake practice.

[Jun]

I suppose that my question may sound a little loaded, but would taking the precepts on one's own somehow make one less a "monk"?

Perhaps to some, especially those who invest time and energy in keeping everyone under monastic/religious control. Me, I don't care what those types think. But hey, I'm the eclectic, maverick kind following the teachings of Suzuki Shõsan Rõshi.

Look back through history at the large number of recognised and famous Zen priests who undertook to ordain themselves.

That which is the Dharma cannot be simply "passed" on. In the words of Takuan Sõhõ, "The teachings of the Dharma can never be extinguished, it is always there to be found as the Buddha did. It need not depend on an unbroken transmission; it is always there to be rediscovered."

The Buddha was quite unambiguously clear that there would be no personal succession following his death. He named no heir. The Dharma alone was to be their guide.

The Buddha himself required only that a bhikkshu have the robes and bowl in order to be accepted into his sangha - no references are made by the Buddha to rituals, ceremonies, rites of passage, special requirements etc. in order to become a monk in his sangha.

In the “Jukai” chapter of the Shobogenzo, Dogen Zenji emphasizes the need to receive and practice the Buddha Precepts for the sake of successively transmitting the righteous teachings. “The Ancestor who teaches the law rightly passed down from Shakyamuni invariably practices receipt of the Buddha Precepts. There can be no Ancestor who does not receive and practice the Buddha Precepts.”... In short, accepting the Buddha Precepts is tantamount to the Dharma that has been successively transmitted from the Buddha.

Well, the "lineage" of Zen is bogus, as is the "transmission" from teacher to student. It's all fluff. As early as the 4th century the Chinese were practising Buddhism, and by the 6th century the Tien'tai school had already produced texts on meditation methods. By the 7th century Zen was still not evident. It isn't until the 8th century that we find the first clear idea of a Zen lineage. The whole idea of formal transmission didn't exist until after Huineng in the 8th century.

Anyhow - PRACTICE is not all this religious-lineage-master-to-student transmission stuff - It's quite simply PRACTICE. All the fluff is attractive, but it isn't the ESSENCE and it certainly isn't necessary for PRACTICE.

My five cents worth from a jigo jishõ heretic monk!

Now I'll await a berating from Jundo - after all, it's his sandbox and I'm only here to play.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Hi Jun,

Personally, I agree with you completely. Sure.

But I wonder about the example of Suzuki Shõsan Roshi. My understanding is that he requested and formally received the Precepts in the traditional way (he had been a warrior, and became a monk at age 42). It is just that he did not stick around to complete his training, was an iconoclast after that, and did not receive formal "Dharma Transmission" from his teacher. Search the word "ordination" in this book on his life, then read from the bottom of page 58.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0895819 ... 7-6414260#

Anyway, it does not matter. What you say is correct. On the other hand, one has to be careful about proclaiming something on one's own without basis. I mean, I can declare myself tonight as Queen of England and Winner of the Noble Prize in Physics, but my self proclamation won't make it so.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jun]

Hi there Jundo,

Hi Jun,

Personally, I agree with you completely. Sure.

But I wonder about the example of Suzuki Shõsan Roshi. My understanding is that he requested and formally received the Precepts in the traditional way (he had been a warrior, and became a monk at age 42). It is just that he did not stick around to complete his training, was an iconoclast after that, and did not receive formal "Dharma Transmission" from his teacher. Search the word "ordination" in this book on his life, then read from the bottom of page 58.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0895819 ... 7-6414260#

Anyway, it does not matter. What you say is correct. On the other hand, one has to be careful about proclaiming something on one's own without basis. I mean, I can declare myself tonight as Queen of England and Winner of the Noble Prize in Physics, but my self proclamation won't make it so.

Gassho, Jundo

Suzuki Shõsan Roshi was already an established Zen teacher before he asked his good friend Daigu if it was necessary to be given a "formal" ordination. He was told by Daigu that it was unnecessary as he was already an established and recognised Dharma teacher and that "ordination" didn't change anything (The reason he kept his own name.)

What the author of that book fails to mention is that Daigu himself was self-ordained! (Source: Myõshinji records)

Actually Suzuki Shõsan Roshi received the precepts in Shingon-shu in the form of what is called samanera (novice monk ordination).

As for sticking around to finish training, he never started! Not under anyone other than Sessõ (together with Genshun in Shingon-shu) which in fact was just a study of the ritsu branch (precepts study). He had already been teaching long before that though.

and did not receive formal "Dharma Transmission" from his teacher.

Suzuki Shõsan Roshi NEVER had a teacher! He trained along side many contemporary Dharma teachers from Rinzai-shu, Soto-shu , and Shingon-shu but NEVER had a teacher.

On the other hand, one has to be careful about proclaiming something on one's own without basis.

Naturally, one living the Middle Path and following the precepts.

The reason for self-ordination - for Shõsan Roshi - was that the monasteries had become complacent, and the teachings neglected. The temples had become little more than half-way houses and places for monks to make easy money as funeral directors (something that has NOT changed in Japan today.)

As far as Shõsan Roshi was concerned the Zen transmission had long ago failed
and Zen had become little more than a business (sound familiar?)

In the words of Dokuan Genkõ, "They transmit the robes, but while the name continues; the reality of enlightenment has long ceased to exist."

In the words of Shõsan Roshi, "The monks today have become like starving ghosts (gaki). They covet the title of 'man of wisdom' - like gaki hungry for wisdom. Then there are those monks who are 'hungry-to-be-leader' gaki, 'fine-robed-with-ranks' gaki, 'temple-loving' gaki, 'Dharma-banner-desiring' gaki, and 'retired-into-fine-housing' gaki. There is not a single one of them who renounces the world."

The large number of Zen priests who achieved realisation on their own in the Edo jidai is evidence that Shõsan Roshi wasn't alone in this opinion. The likes of Daigu, Ungo, Isshi, Tosui, Gudõ, all were self-ordained.

My teacher always answers questions of ordination with, "A monk is one who calls himself a monk." (While living the middle path and following the precepts) I tend to agree.

Monk, priest, student, lay-follower - all just labels.

While Sõtõ-shu considers us to be no more than lay monks, other Buddhist sects all throughout Asia consider ALL Japanese sects to be no more than lay monks - It's all silly nonsense!

Oh, thanks for the link to that book, I didn't know about it.

Gassho

[Rev R]

Thanks for that fellas. Put some things in perspective it did.

and Harry,

God Shave the Queen!