Ordination

[Eika]

Recent cyber events raised a few issues as well as questions.

There was some questioning of Jundo's credentials by the folks over at e-sangha. Something along the lines of his ordination being a lay ordination and therefore lesser than their "higher" variety. I am relatively ignorant of the various levels of ordination in schools of Buddhism and how they might compare to one another (if that is even possible). So, my questions are very open ones: "What is ordination in Soto Zen and how does one receive it?" "What use is it?" "Are other Buddhist traditions more strict in their demands for ordination?" "How do these older traditions of certification fit into modern times and Western culture?" etc.

Now a comment: I have a significant amount of training in music (this is honestly not something to brag about). I have three music degrees (Bachelor's, Master's, Doctorate) and my students call me 'doctor Swann,' my profession demanded those of me if I wanted to teach, and they have helped lend clout to my opinions from time to time. BUT, ultimately it is a bit of a con-game. I learned a great deal in my schooling, but I learned as much or more playing for 20 years as a professional musician (which did not earn me any sort of title). I know plenty of posers in academia who have great credentials but cannot teach, don't contribute to a body of scholarly knowledge, aren't good people in general, etc and so on. I still have to walk the walk. I still have to teach what I have learned. And if my teaching is irrelevant or untrue to my students then it is my fault and not theirs. My point here is that my experience tells me that the proof is in the pudding. A title such as "Lama so and so" will buy a person a bit of a listen from me but they better deliver the goods quickly or they will lose my interest and any consideration I might have had for their ideas. I don't really give a shit about the titles of Buddhist teachers other than them giving me a quick way to appraise their level of education/training in that field.
Lastly, if the choice is between a monk/geshe/lama who spends their life in the walls of a monastery or a lay-ordained teacher who has learned to apply Buddhism in everyday life, I will choose the latter. How relevant are words about renunciation from a person who has nothing to renounce (my idea here is that it is actually easier to renounce things when they are separated from you than when you are immersed in them)? I prefer Soto Zen precisely because these dudes were IN THE WORLD, not living idealized, cloistered lives.
So, I don't negate the value of ordination, but it is not a pass to avoid answering questions or enforcing dogma. I will indulge the ideas of a high lama for only marginally longer than anyone else before I turn on the 'bullshit detector.'

So, all that being said, I would like to know a bit more about ordination in spite of my skepticism toward it.

Bill

[will]

Something interesting happening at Treeleaf. Thanks for the post Bill. Good question.

G,W

[Jun]

Traditionally all across mainland Asia monks are ordained using the full vinaya precepts.

Saicho (the founder of Tendai-shu in Japan) with the help of the imperial court, (in 818) had the vinaya precepts of ordination replaced with the Mahayana precepts (the Bodhisattva precepts) - making these ordinations a "Bodhisattva ordination."

This "Bodhisattva ordination" uses the ten major and forty-eight minor precepts derived from the Chinese Brahmajala sutra. Soto-shu summarised these making the sixteen Zen precepts (Rinzai has ten).

To other Asian nations where Buddhism is practice those holding a "Bodhisattva ordination" are nothing more than pious laypeople - not being actually monks.

In the words of Saicho -

"I have read the Buddha's teachings and know that there are pure Mahayana teachings and pure Hinayana teachings. The students of my school shall study the Mahayana precepts, meditation and wisdom and they shall abandon the inferior Hinayana teachings forever."

So the whole squabble comes down to the number and type of precepts used in the ordination process.

[Jundo]

Re: Ordination

There was some questioning of Jundo's credentials by the folks over at e-sangha. Something along the lines of his ordination being a lay ordination and therefore lesser than their "higher" variety. I am relatively ignorant of the various levels of ordination in schools of Buddhism and how they might compare to one another (if that is even possible). So, my questions are very open ones: "What is ordination in Soto Zen and how does one receive it?" "What use is it?" "Are other Buddhist traditions more strict in their demands for ordination?" "How do these older traditions of certification fit into modern times and Western culture?" etc.

Hi Bill,

The question is not my [Jundo's] credentials, but the credentials of every Buddhist monk/priest in Japan of every sect compared to monks/priests in other countries. Since I am involved in the issue [and thus not unbiased [img]{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif[/img] petty vinaya could be nullified. This disagreement led some time later to the two groups splitting up. Eventually, one group became predominant in northern India; they became the Mahayana group, which used Sanskrit as its textual language. The other group became predominant in southern India, used Pali for their written texts, and were called "Hinayana" [lesser vehicle] by the Mahayana [great vehicle] group. The southern school survives today and is referred to now by the more polite name of the Theravada [way of the elders] School.

Jumping ahead about thousand years, Buddhism was introduced into Japan in about the 6th century, and by the 8th century it was established enough to have large monasteries. Saicho, an important abbot of a large Tendai Buddhist monastery and head of the Tendai movement in Japan at that time, petitioned the Emperor in the 8th century asking for permission to ordain monks using only the Sixteen Bodhisattva Precepts instead of the 227 Patimoksha Precepts that were ordinarily used. I can’t remember why he wanted the precepts reduced, but certainly it would be difficult to follow all of the them in the culture and climate of Japan. Actually, some of the original precepts must have been modified in China prior to this. For example, the traditional precepts limit a monk’s possessions to something like three robes, one bowl and two needles. In Japan, where it is very hot and humid in the summer and cold and snowy in the winter (especially in the mountains), under robes were added to the traditional ordination robe or okesa.

Other Patimoksa precepts prohibited work, but Zen monks in China and Japan did work in the kitchen, on the grounds, and grew food in fields and gardens, which made their monasteries self sufficient to some extent and less dependent on donations from lay people and the government. This was a factor in the survival of Zen monasteries during the Buddhist persecution in China in about the 10th or 11th century. In Zen Buddhism, working not only was allowed for monks, but it was seen as another vehicle for practice and has come to be known as being characteristic of zen practice.

After petitioning for many years, Saicho died and the Emperor of Japan granted permission posthumously for monks to be ordained receiving sixteen precepts. Eventually the sixteen Bodhisattva Precepts came to be used by all, or nearly all, Japanese Buddhist sects in ordaining monks. Japan is the only Asian country where ordained Buddhist clerics receive only sixteen precepts. After Japanese ports were finally opened to foreign ships in about 1868, the Japanese government mounted a campaign to establish a state religion to help prevent foreign religions from entering the culture, and the indigenous Shinto religion was chosen over Buddhism. The authority of Buddhist monks at that time was undermined and eventfully Buddhist monks were allowed and even encouraged by the government to marry. This is why in Japan today, most Buddhist clerics tend to be priests living as householders taking care of temples where lay people practice rather than living in monasteries as celibate monks. This is some of the cultural history of the precepts we take.

http://www.intrex.net/chzg/precepts.htm
[/quote]

Some (emphasis SOME) monks from outside Japan question the propriety of using the term 'monks" to apply to Japanese Buddhist clergy for that reason, and make some argument that it is the same as "lay" precepts [in fact, they are the very same 16 Precepts that are the subject of the "Lay" Jukai ceremony, and there is really very little difference between "Jukai" and a "Shukke Tokudo" ritual for new initiate priests exept the intent behind it}. Here is a little more history from E-Sangha (there is some useful information there sometimes). I mention again that the central criticism of Japanese priests is that most marry]
There is a unique history with the precept situation in Japan and celibacy, but I can only grossly oversimplify here.


(1) Before Saicho, all of Japanese Buddhism was identical to Chinese Buddhism in terms of precepts, and of course all Japanese monks were celibate. The Hinayana precepts were taken and kept (Dharmagupta).

(2) Under Saicho's influence, the court allowed that Tendai monks could be ordained using only the Fangwang bodhisattva precepts (plus celibacy) for political reasons (to reduce the political influence of the Nara schools). The Hinayana precepts were discarded in the Tendai Hokke-shu (Tendai).

(3) The offshoots of Tendai in Japan also only used the Fanwang bodhisattva precepts, and no Hinayana precepts. These offshoots are the Japanese versions of Soto and Rinzai, the Pure Land schools, and the Nichiren schools. These account for the majority of Japanese Buddhism.

(4) The schools outside of that sphere of influence, Kegon, Hosso, Ritsu, and some Shingon schools maintained the Hinayana precepts throughout the medieval period. (The case is very complicated for Shingon because of the number of subsects and because of close interfacing with the court and government restrictions in that regard.) However, as the influence of particularly the first three dwindled seriously in the later middle ages, the Hinayana precepts dwindled, and the Tendai model came to be adapted in schools outside that tradition and its spinoffs.

(5) By the mid Edo period the Hinayana precepts were in a state of disarray and there were no more Chinese masters permitted to arrive by the government. The model of Tendai became the standard for basically all of Japanese Buddhism, meaning celibacy with the Fangwang bodhisattva precepts, but no transmission of Hinayana prcepts. Some Shingon groups in particular worked to restore the Hinayana precepts, but this achieved only minor success.

(6) Tokugawa criminal law required all Japanese monks to be 1. celibate, 2. not eat meat or fish, and 3. not wear lay clothing. This law specifically did not apply to priests of the Jodo Shin-shu, who were permitted to marry under the law.

(7) After the Meiji Restoration, the new government set out to establish State Shinto (including emperor worship) as the state religion, and decided the influence of Buddhism must end. To achieve this they: 1. repealed the Tokugawa law requiring celibacy, and 2. encouraged the population to attack Buddhist temples and conducted a propaganda campaign about the evils of Buddhism. Something like the Chinese Cultural Revolution, many temples were burned down and vandalized at this time. Monk were mistreated, and forcibly returned to lay status in some cases. The repeal of the law about celibacy was intended to undermine the respect of the people for the celibate sangha.

(8 Buddhism in Japan entered a dark age at this time after the Meiji Restoration, and few new novices could be found. However, the remaining monks found that since they were now legally allowed to marry and have children, in order to preserve Buddhism in the face of government antagonism and to solve the problem of a lack of new disciples to carry on, that they could procreate their own disciples. The example of Jodo Shin-shu, which had done this since medieval times, was probably not trivial in this decision.

(9) After Japanese Buddhism weathered those difficult times having dwindled to a very small size, it recovered when the government eventually stopped its aggression, realizing the futility of that, and decided to instead have Buddhism work for its budding nationalistic and expansionist policies instead. Nevertheless, the Buddhist priests continued to marry and have children to carry on, perhaps fearing a new set of attacks.
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Finally, this is all wrapped up into the subject of most Japanese priests/monks now marrying. Here is a chapter from a very good book on the subject.

ton.edu/chapters/s7171.html">http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s7171.html

I am sure that is more information than you wanted.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jun]

Wow, a lot of detail - thank you Jundo.

[Rev R]

The members asked which of the vinaya were the petty ones, and Ananda replied that at the time Buddha told him this, he was lost in astonishment that some of the vinaya could be disregarded and forgot to ask.

This is the funniest thing I've read today.

Thanks for the info (and the laugh) guys.

[Jun]

Just thought I'd add this on the topic of what constitutes a monk (bhikkhu) in Buddhism -

Not therefore is he a bhikkhu
Merely because he begs from others.
Not by adopting the outward form
Does one truly become a bhikkhu.
He who wholly subdues evil,
Both small and great,
Is called a monk (bhikkhu)
Because he has overcome all evil.

from the Dhammapada

[Eika]

"After my Nirvana, if the sangha asks for the nullification of some articles of the petty vinaya, the Tathagata gives you permission to nullify them serially."

I had read this before . . . so the Buddha was messin' with the monks to remind them that none of the precepts were above inspection (sacred). This fact that we don't know how many, which ones, etc he might have been referring to leads me to think that getting bent out of shape over them is silly. It all sounds like a pissing contest to me. "We are the real monk because we take 740,000 precepts" "Oh yeah, well WE take 740,001 precepts, so there." etc.
Much silliness.
I, being right brained I guess, tend toward favoring large conceptual frameworks from which I draw specific conclusions instead of having a million rules for everything. So, the bodhisattva precepts seem to cover all of the other stuff pretty well. I imagine that many of the precepts that monks in other traditions take are indeed petty "Don't leave the seat on the toilet up" kind of stuff (day to day functioning of the sangha).
Thanks for your responses . . . it has helped.

Gassho,
Bill

[Bansho]

Hi Bill,

I just thought it also might be worth mentioning that the vinaya precepts weren't presented by the Buddha all at once on a silver platter, but rather were formulated one by one, each as a result of a specific incident in his Order. Basically that brings up (at least) 2 issues.

Firstly, it may be that such an incident may never happen again, or that if it happens under different circumstances, it may not necessarily be a bad thing. I think that's probably why the Buddha said it would be OK to leave some out in the future. No reason to become attached to rules which have become obsolete.

Secondly, if the Buddha were still alive today, he most certainly would have continually expanded on that list to reflect shortcomings amongst his Bhikkhus as they arose in modern times up till the present. So we could rightly ask those who regard those long lists of precepts so much why they didn't continue with them?!? If they had, they probably would have something like 740,000 precepts today.

Gassho
Ken

[Bansho]

Hi Harry,

OK, I'll give it a go.

There were 250 monks precepts and 348 precepts for nuns. Let's assume the latter include the former and since we're all for equality here at Treeleaf let's assume those 348 rules apply to males and females for our purposes. I think the Buddha taught for about 45 years. Also let's assume 2500 years have gone by since then (since there is no real concensus on his dates of birth/death).

So, we have 348 / 45 = 7.73333 precepts / year.

2500 years * 7.73333 precepts / year = 19,333.333 precepts.

Hey, that's not too bad at all, in any case it's a lot less than 740,000 !

Who wants to think about what they may be and start typing them in for use at Treeleaf???

Gassho
Ken

[Jundo]

Hi,

These links may give you a taste for the more detailed Vinaya ...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ti.html#sg

Some of these are, obviously, a problem for the married and more worldly priests of Japan.

Gassho, Jundo

PS- Please, as a personal request, might we avoid "making fun" after reading these, or being derisive (if that is what someone thought to do)? They are to be respected in the same way that your own moral view is to be respected. In other words, no snide and "superior" comments comparing ourselves to other Buddhists, please. ANYONE BREAKING THE AFORESAID RULE WILL BE SUBJECT TO FORFEITURE AND PUBLIC CONFESSION.

[Lynn]

Hey Bill,

You asked:

"So, my questions are very open ones: "What is ordination in Soto Zen and how does one receive it?" "What use is it?" "Are other Buddhist traditions more strict in their demands for ordination?" "How do these older traditions of certification fit into modern times and Western culture?" etc."

Well, I can only tell you of my own, personal experience with one lineage.
(This is the lineage passed down from Rev. Master Jiyu Kennett who was trained in Japan by her master, The Very Reverend Keido Chisan Koho Zenji who was the Abbot of the Shojiji monastery in Japan.)

OK...in our tradition there are only two types of ordinations: lay and priest.

A lay Buddhist is "ordained" by taking the 10 Great precepts during Jukai. If a lay person stays involved and shows some degree of maturity in their training (don't ask me what this means,) and commitment to the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives (our Order,) they were offered the opportunity to become lay ministers. The lay ministers I've known have only been invited to do this after about 15 years of committed practice. No lay minister is ever able to be called a "teacher of the Buddhadharma" and hold classes (although they can teach meditation and lead a mini-sessin,) nor are they able to take students/disciples. They are considered good examples and mentors for the younger in practice, but ONLY fully ordained priests can teach the Dharma, do sanzen, and take students.

In our Order it is a long process to become a teacher. One is a postulant for approximately 2 years, then ordained as a novice and remains so for approximately 6 years, then one becomes a Transmitted monk (again, don't ask me what that means) and remains so for approximately another 3 years, until they show the "right stuff" to become a Senior monk. At that point you can become a teacher after another 3 years or so...which means you are not considered qualified to be a teacher of the Buddhadharma for approximately 14 years of monastic training. Seniors who take disciples can only do so after they have acheived the rank of Master and when that will occur is never known, although it seems to have something to do with a Kensho, but it is generally after you have been a senior for many, many years.

The ordination ceremony for a priest is fairly involved in our Order with quite an elaborate ceremony. It is essentially the same Precepts-wise, though. Taking the 10 Great Precepts and the Bodhisattva Vows.

So, that's just one slice of the pie. Confused yet??

In Gassho~

*Lynn

[Eika]

Thanks, Lynn.

Does each lineage determine what their ordination procedures are, or is there some standard in all Soto lineages?

Bill

[Lynn]

Hi again,

I don't know the answer to that question. My guess is that ordination for priests looks pretty much the same within the Soto sect with some slight variations, but minor ones.

I forgot to mention that priests in the OBC do not follow the Japanese tradition of allowing priests to marry. The OBC is a celibate order. Rev. Master Jiyu tried it the other way when she first started the order but it was too crazy making. There weren't any familial temples to pass down etc. so allowing the monks to marry came mostly out of the fact that all the disciples who showed up in the early 70's were in their 20's with hormones raging and it was simpler to allow them to just marry. She discontinued this about 7 or 8 years later.

This is interesting because when one is ordained within the OBC you have a part in the ceremony where you thank your parents (who, if they are living and willing, are there at the ordination ceremony) for all they did to help you get to the point of ordination and then you step over the threshold of renunciation of worldly family and assume your place within the priestly family. (BTW, this DOES NOT mean you never speak to your family again!! It is a spiritual process.) If you are married and still maintain a "worldly family" it does seem a little incongruous to participate in this ceremony at all. But, again, this just may be something within the OBC which is the only group I have personal knowledge of.

So, for her Western temple, priests are celibate, vegetarian (following the vinaya rules regarding the pungent roots,) and dry (no alcohol.)

Gassho~

*Lynn

[Jundo]

Does each lineage determine what their ordination procedures are, or is there some standard in all Soto lineages?

Bill

There are some standards prescribed in the constitution of Soto-shu in Japan, (Scroll a few inches down this page) ...

http://www.terebess.hu/zen/szoto/etikett.html

There is some flexibility there, but it tends to be very strict because it is basically a closed guild that restricts access to membership (to prevent questions over who has the right to manage a temple). The master still has a great deal of freedom in the details of training, although the usual path is via Komazawa University (a famous Soto University in Tokyo ) and/or Sojiji/Eiheiji (or a few other training temples).

In the west, each lineage has established its own standards, although the SZBA is seeking to enforce certain basic standards and guidelines.

Gassho, J