Ordination

[Jun]

Jundo, I was wondering if you would be so good as to offer an opinion on the 23rd (secondary) Bodhisattva precept?

Gassho

[Jundo]

Hi Jun,

Do you mean "Refrain from Teaching the Dharma Grudgingly"? It follows No. 22, "Refrain from Arrogance and Failure to Request the Dharma"

Well, one should always be willing to teach the Dharma by a living demonstration of peace and balance in one's life ... The best way to "teach the Dharma" to people around us is, not by prostelitizing "Buddhism", but rather by living each day as a good friend, husband, son, etc., living in a balanced way avoiding harm and manifesting Compassion. Of course, if someone asks directly about Buddhism or Zazen, etc., one should not refrain from telling what one knows about these things.

No. 22 can mean, however, not becoming arrogant too early in our Buddhist training about our understanding and "enlightenment", and not thereby refusing to learn. Learning is a lifetime process moment by moment, and all phenomena preach the Dharma as do all sentient beings, and one must learn from the tiniest baby, the greatest fool, disagreeable people ... all are our teachers.

Is that what you meant, Jun? Gassho, Jundo

[Jun]

Hello Jundo,

Actually, the Bodhisattva precepts that I have here may be set out differently (?) The 23rd precept states that - "whenever a person with wholesome intention sincerely wishes to receive the precepts, but where the normal requirements of ordination [such as a teacher and officiating persons] cannot be fulfilled; then he should vow before the Buddha and Bodhisattva images to accept and uphold the precepts - jisei jukai. A sign will show itself to confer that the self-ordination is acceptable."

Saicho mentions this in his Tendai Hokkeshu nenbundosha eshõ kodai shiki.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Hello Jundo,

Actually, the Bodhisattva precepts that I have here may be set out differently (?) The 23rd precept states that - "whenever a person with wholesome intention sincerely wishes to receive the precepts, but where the normal requirements of ordination [such as a teacher and officiating persons] cannot be fulfilled; then he should vow before the Buddha and Bodhisattva images to accept and uphold the precepts - jisei jukai. A sign will show itself to confer that the self-ordination is acceptable."

Saicho mentions this in his Tendai Hokkeshu nenbundosha eshõ kodai shiki.

Gassho

Hi Again Jun,

As came up earlier in the thread, Soto-shu ordination (both Shukke and Zaike Tokudo/Jukai) is focused upon the 16 Bodhisattva Precepts, and the 48 "Secondary" Precepts are not front and center. But the section of the Mahayana Bonmogyo (Brahma Net Sutra) to which you refer is this one ...

23. On Teaching the Dharma Grudgingly

After my [Shakyamuni Buddha's] passing, if a disciple should, with a wholesome mind, wish to receive the Bodhisattva precepts, he may make a vow to do so before the images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and practice repentance before these images for seven days. If he then experiences a vision, he has received the precepts. If he does not, he should continue doing so for fourteen days, twenty-one days, or even a whole year, seeking to witness an auspicious sign. After witnessing such a sign, he could, in front of images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, formally receive the precepts. If he has not witnessed such a sign, although he may have accepted the precepts before the Buddha images, he has not actually received the precepts.

However, the witnessing of auspicious signs is not necessary if the disciple receives the precepts directly from a Dharma Master who has himself received the precepts. Why is this so? It is because this is a case of transmission from Master to Master and therefore all that is required is a mind of utter sincerity and respect on the part of the disciple.

If, within a radius of some three hundred fifty miles, a disciple cannot find a Master capable of conferring the Bodhisattva precepts, he may seek to receive them in front of Buddha or Bodhisattva images. However, he must witness an auspicious sign.

If a Dharma Master, on account of his extensive knowledge of sutras and Mahayana moral codes as well as his close relationship with kings, princes, and high officials, refuses to give appropriate answers to student-Bodhisattvas seeking the meaning of sutras and moral codes, or does so grudgingly, with resentment and arrogance, he commits a secondary offense.

EMPHASIS ADDED BY JUNDO

http://www.ymba.org/bns/bnsframe.htm

Well, apart from my personal doubt about the significance and reliability of someone's seeing "visions" (hallucinations?) in front of Buddha Statues, the rule does not apply in the event a living, breathing Master can be found within a radius of 350 miles (JUNDO NOTE: How does this rule apply, now that our Sangha will be available for an on-line Precepts ceremony early next year???).

In any event, from my perspective, the most important thing about the Precepts comes before, during and after the Precepts ceremony. If one is living, as one can, to avoid harm, and to live in ways helpful and healthful to oneself and others, then one has already "received the Precepts" ... and the ceremony only commemorates that fact. When we prepare for our Treeleaf Zendo Jukai in the Spring, we will study Master Dogen's chapters [iJukai[/i] and Kyoju-kaimon (Comments on Teaching and Conferring the Precepts) and his take on the Precepts as well (which is that, as with Zazen, the Precepts are Enlightenment itself and are swept into Zazen).

Jun, as you are interested in arcane bits of Soto history, do you know this paper? I read it awhile back and found it very interesting ...

http://www.acmuller.net/zen-sem/2004/riggs.html

Any other point you had in mind about this, Jun?

Gassho, Jundo

[Jun]

As came up earlier in the thread, Soto-shu ordination (both Shukke and Zaike Tokudo/Jukai) is focused upon the 16 Bodhisattva Precepts, and the 48 "Secondary" Precepts are not front and centre.

Hi Jundo,

Yes, I know. I'm interested in all things historical and ALL takes on things concerning the Dharma (Yes arcane bits of history!) Just thought I'd ask if you had an opinion.

Seeing as Saicho made comment on it several times in his ordination requests to the court, and it's implications at that point in time on ordination and later affects on Japanese Buddhism I thought I'd ask. Especially since the precepts used in Sōtō-shu are related to the precepts used by the Tendai-shu.

Well, apart from my personal doubt about the significance and reliability of someone's seeing "visions" (hallucinations?) in front of Buddha Statues, the rule does not apply in the event a living, breathing Master can be found within a radius of 350 miles (JUNDO NOTE: How does this rule apply, now that our Sangha will be available for an on-line Precepts ceremony early next year???).

Yes. I was wondering how this type of thing could have possibly have been taken seriously? How does one authenticate another's "visions?"

In any event, from my perspective, the most important thing about the Precepts comes before, during and after the Precepts ceremony. If one is living, as one can, to avoid harm, and to live in ways helpful and healthful to oneself and others, then one has already "received the Precepts" ...

Yes!

When we prepare for our Treeleaf Zendo Jukai in the Spring, we will study Master Dogen's Kyoju-kaimon (Comments on Teaching and Conferring the Precepts) and his take on the Precepts as well (which is that, as with Zazen, the Precepts are Enlightenment itself).

How interesting, I'll be sure to take part in the lecture/study part of that if a heretic such as myself is permitted. (?) I'm not at all interested in the jukai part.

Jun, as you are interested in arcane bits of Soto history, do you know this paper? I read it awhile back and found it very interesting ...

Ah, thank you. I'm pouring over it now. Much of what is discussed there I was aware of, the Obaku-shu influences I was not aware of however. Obaku-shu history is not something I've delved into. Thank you again.

Any other point you had in mind about this, Jun?

Nothing in particular thank you. I was just interested in your opinion on that particular precept. Apparently it was popular in history when the validity of ordinations conferred on monks was in question. This would have no doubt led to considerable abuse.

Is your own opinion in line with Dogen - in that the precepts ARE enlightenment itself? Or do you side with Dohaku and Menzan?

Gassho

[Lynn]

Well, apart from my personal doubt about the significance and reliability of someone's seeing "visions" (hallucinations?) in front of Buddha Statues, the rule does not apply in the event a living, breathing Master can be found within a radius of 350 miles (JUNDO NOTE: How does this rule apply, now that our Sangha will be available for an on-line Precepts ceremony early next year???).

Yes. I was wondering how this type of thing could have possibly have been taken seriously? How does one authenticate another's "visions?"

What of a kensho then?

In Gassho~

*Lynn

[Jun]

Well, apart from my personal doubt about the significance and reliability of someone's seeing "visions" (hallucinations?) in front of Buddha Statues, the rule does not apply in the event a living, breathing Master can be found within a radius of 350 miles (JUNDO NOTE: How does this rule apply, now that our Sangha will be available for an on-line Precepts ceremony early next year???).

Yes. I was wondering how this type of thing could have possibly have been taken seriously? How does one authenticate another's "visions?"

What of a kensho then?

In Gassho~

*Lynn

What of it?

Kenshõ (見性) - "seeing one's original nature." Usually Kenshõ is taken to mean a lesser experience or degree of enlightenment or satori. A fleeting awareness. Not as deep and abiding as satori.

How does one verify this insight in another? How does one authenticate such a state?

[Rev R]

Didn't one of the teachers of old warn to keep the experience of kensho to ourselves and to not fixate on it?

With a description as vague as "seeing one's original nature" I imagine it would be pretty difficult (if not impossible) to authenticate such a thing for oneself let alone authenticating it for someone else.

[Jundo]

What of a kensho then?

In Gassho~

*Lynn

Hi Lynn,

Ah, THE BIG QUESTION!! .... Kensho and Satori!!

I am going to move this to its own discussion, as it is the topic that it is.

Gassho, Jundo

[Lynn]

Well, in my experience only a ratified master was able to confirm that someone had had an authentic kensho. That's all I know so I was curious what others understanding of it was. Honestly, anyone can say "I had a kensho." I guess kensho confirmation is a bit like a dharma transmission from master to disciple in a heart to heart/mind to mind context. Little words are involved in the understanding and sharing.

But, I cannot claim to have had one myself.

Gassho~

*Lynn

[Jun]

Well, in my experience only a ratified master was able to confirm that someone had had an authentic kensho.

And how does this "ratified master" confirm such?

I guess kensho confirmation is a bit like a dharma transmission from master to disciple in a heart to heart/mind to mind context. Little words are involved in the understanding and sharing.

Heart to heart/mind to mind "transmission" from teacher to student - how does that work exactly? What are the criteria by which this is to be verified or confirmed?

[Eika]

Thanks everyone for the interesting information.
I find it interesting to see what various fields use for 'certification' of their members. I think you can tell a great deal about a group by the criteria it uses to venerate/give authority to practitioners and teachers. Also, these criteria often reveal a kind of cognitive dissonance between the things that the group claims it believes and what it actually does (assuming those actions are supposed to be an outward manifestation of the group's beliefs).

Thanks,

Bill

[Rev R]

Back the topic of taking/ receiving the precepts.

When all is said and done does it really matter if the precept vow is taken with a teacher or on one's own?

It could be my personal feelings on the matter that are confusing me so I'll state them here.

To me taking this vow is like taking any other vow, a deeply personal commitment or devotion to the Way. In essence like swearing fealty to the Buddha and by extension the rest of humanity. So I don't see any real purpose to the ceremonial aspect. It doesn't matter if you take them from a certified teacher, an image of the Buddha or a rock in the yard so long as you strive to keep them.

I can see how maybe a record of ordinations is necessary in order to prevent folks from "self-ordaining" and then claiming to be a certified teacher of X tradition in X's lineage and abusing that for personal gain, but if one is keeping the precepts this shouldn't happen in the first place.

I suppose that my question may sound a little loaded, but would taking the precepts on one's own somehow make one less a "monk"?

My second question is what if the person seeking to take the precepts doesn't adhere to the Soto tradition or any other specific school of Zen thought is it then a matter of "any teacher will do"?

[will]

Who certified Shakyamuni Buddha, right?

G,W

[Jundo]

To me taking this vow is like taking any other vow, a deeply personal commitment or devotion to the Way. In essence like swearing fealty to the Buddha and by extension the rest of humanity. So I don't see any real purpose to the ceremonial aspect. It doesn't matter if you take them from a certified teacher, an image of the Buddha or a rock in the yard so long as you strive to keep them.

Yes, but ... (our Practice is filled with lots of "yes, buts ..."). I am with you completely. But, on the other hand, it reminds me of the time I tried to tell my wife that we should skip the wedding, and just run down to city hall, cause it is all the same thing. I was right, of course, but also .... yes, but.

John Tarrant may sum up the other side of the coin in this portion of his essay.

Every year around the beginning of winter we do the ceremony of Jukai in the sangha. It is the primary initiation ceremony of zen. The great inner initiation of zen is enlightenment, but meanwhile we do outer initiation ceremonies like Jukai, which have a deep meaning. In Jukai you receive the rakasu, which

represents the robe of the Buddha, and your connection to all the

ancient lineage of people who have walked the Way and suffered

for wisdom and also gained wisdom. You share in their light and

their effort. You take on a Buddhist name, identifying yourself

in the tradition in that way.



You engage with the precepts of the Bodhisattva. There are

sixteen of them. Pretty much they are common sense undertakings.

"I take up the way of not killing," "not stealing," "not lying,"

"not undertaking sexual misconduct," "not misusing drugs."

Things like that, simple things. "Not indulging in anger," "not

praising myself while abusing others." And as well as that there

is taking refuge as part of the precepts. "I take refuge in the

Buddha." "I take refuge in the dharma." "I take refuge in the

sangha." Which is the primary act, I suppose, really. To say

that I trust that there is a Way and I commit myself to it.



A ceremony is like a wedding, I think of Jukai as being something

like a wedding, in a way, in that you do something--you

acknowledge something that was already going forward inside you.

You make it public among your friends and in your community. So

it has that value. And it's kind of like a wedding in that there

are some times when you shouldn't do it, and there's a time when

you should even if you're hesitating. So, you need to judge

that--whether you shouldn't do it or whether you should--and be

faithful to that choice. But if you've really decided that this

path is for you and you're walking it, then there will come a

time when you will do it, I think, because it is to acknowledge

to yourself the importance of wisdom in your life, the importance

of the inner work.

http://www.boundlesswayzen.org/teishos/ ... jukai.html

Master Dogen, by the way, was a major advocate of formal Jukai as almost as important as Zazen.

In the “Jukai” chapter of the Shobogenzo, Dogen Zenji emphasizes the need to receive and practice the Buddha Precepts for the sake of successively transmitting the righteous teachings. “The Ancestor who teaches the law rightly passed down from Shakyamuni invariably practices receipt of the Buddha Precepts. There can be no Ancestor who does not receive and practice the Buddha Precepts.”... In short, accepting the Buddha Precepts is tantamount to the Dharma that has been successively transmitted from the Buddha.