Perspectives on Non-Violence

[Jundo]

I also would want to suggest, if this child's death is weighing heavily in one's feelings, to sit for the child and all suffering children. Dedicating a recitation of the Heart Sutra is also good.

On a practical note, I might suggest special effort to work with or donate to a charity or the like that is today helping suffering children. It is not possible to rescue that boy from Sarajevo, but it is still possible to assist countless children in war zones and other hard places around the world right now.

Gassho, J

[jus]

this is a good topic, thank you. i dont consider myself somebody who handles situations with violence (not since highschool, atleast), so ive never worried much/given much thought about this.

but on topics of war, and especially bin laden, and turning the other check, i have to really be watchful of things like this. i remember being glued to the tv in the late night hours when the manhunt for "bomber number 2" had begun, and also the next day when they had him sorrounded, and just watching in almost "revenge mode". im starting to think that maybe this is something inheritantly american (and possibly human), where sometimes the best of people want "blood" in the most extreme instances (like i dont know how id handle somebody hurting my mother, for instance).

i had to really realize what i was doing and step back. it was becoming an almost sick form of entertainment for me. like the dali lamas take, and what other here have said about karma, it is the ones who did this karma (and im not even 100 percent sure who did it, i wasnt there and didnt see it, which makes my want for payback even more disfunctional).

i think the best i can do is let their karma playout, how ever that may be, and have compassion to all involved, even the bombers and their families.

gassho,
justin

[Amelia]

People are often annoyed with me when there's some kind of manhunt going on because I feel bad for the suspect running. I feel this strange empathy for the person suffering through knowing what they've done and unable to escape it or the consequences. Also because despite their crimes, they are people capable of love, just as we are all capable of hate. I imagined what it might have been like for that young man hiding in the boat, putting the gun in his mouth trying to kill himself, overwhelmed with what was happening. He might have had no idea what he was doing until after that bomb went off and he saw the results. Life is a video game to some people, traumatizing when it turns real.

I've always wondered why seeing death makes people want more death.

[Jundo]

People are often annoyed with me when there's some kind of manhunt going on because I feel bad for the suspect running. I feel this strange empathy for the person suffering through knowing what they've done and unable to escape it or the consequences. Also because despite their crimes, they are people capable of love, just as we are all capable of hate. I imagined what it might have been like for that young man hiding in the boat, putting the gun in his mouth trying to kill himself, overwhelmed with what was happening. He might have had no idea what he was doing until after that bomb went off and he saw the results. Life is a video game to some people, traumatizing when it turns real.

I've always wondered why seeing death makes people want more death.

Yes, Amelia. Buddhists tend not to see "bad people", but bad, harmful acts. There are nothing but victims all around ... victims of hate, anger, greed, violence. Even the harm doers acted because of the disease of hate and missing compassion within.

Nonetheless, we must stop those who commit criminal violence to protect the lives of others.

Gassho, J

[Andrea1974]

I am against any form of extreme violence, but isn't violence necessary for life to exist? Look at the animal kingdom and the way "it works". When a lion eats a gazelle it does not think "oh man...I wish I wouldn't have to devour you" Peace and violence are two sides of the same coin. Can you really imagine a world where there is only peace? It would be just as likely as a world where the sun is shining all day. The problem (especially when humans are involved) begins when peace and violence are out of balance. When is violence justified? That is probably a more difficult question to answer...think about the death penalty.

Gassho, A

[Daijo]

My understanding is that “right action” is ultimately the way we deter violence before it happens. The smile that changes a stranger’s day changes the world. The butterfly effect if you like. So we do our best to walk, speak, think, and act “peacefully”. This is all we can do. But does this mean we should allow ourselves to be physically abused without defending ourselves? I don’t think so. I don’t see the point in that at all. Of course, defending ones self and retaliation after the fact are entirely different things.

[Amelia]

Nonetheless, we must stop those who commit criminal violence to protect the lives of others.

Hopefully my post didn't imply that I didn't want the suspect to be found. I simply hope that he has a fair trial. I hope this for anybody involved in a crime, guilty or not.

[Amelia]

I am against any form of extreme violence, but isn't violence necessary for life to exist?

Yes, of course! To eat, something must be killed or maimed, vegetarian or not.

Can you really imagine a world where there is only peace?

Nope! And it probably doesn't exist anywhere in this universe.

My understanding is that “right action” is ultimately the way we deter violence before it happens.

There's a great documentary about this called, "The Interrupters". It's about a group of ex-felons working to stop conflicts before they happen in Chicago. Anyone interested might want to look it up.

But does this mean we should allow ourselves to be physically abused without defending ourselves? I don't think so.

Me either. I don't know if anyone I know here would advocate that...

[Kyonin]

Speaking of non violence...

I just read this story on The Guardian. It's pretty sad.

Burma has always been a hot spot for hate and intolerance. This time we can see buddhists having a wonderful time creating chaos and killing muslims.

A lot to think about here. How sick and tired you have to be to react like this? How much hate has been brewing for decades to make violence rise up like that?

No matter what religion people practice, how much rage and hate do you have to carry on your heart to kill in cold blood like that?

Blows my mind.

WARNING: disturbing video.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/22/burmese-police-buddhists-attack-muslims

[jus]

Amelia, no, I get that and I am the same way. only, I can notice that there is that part of me that goes, "yeah yeah, get the guy!", and have to be watchful for it in myself. conversely, there is also that part of me that can root for the bad guy as well (not in said instance, though). all things I need to be mindful of if im going to practice. gassho, justin

[Jundo]

Speaking of non violence...

I just read this story on The Guardian. It's pretty sad.

Burma has always been a hot spot for hate and intolerance. This time we can see buddhists having a wonderful time creating chaos and killing muslims.

All genocide and ethnic cleansing, religious strife and anger and violence is to be condemned. End of story. We should all live together, and this world has space and resources sufficient for all if we wisely share ... Jews and Palestinians, Sunni and Shi'ite, Catholic and Protestant, Serbs and Croats and all the rest.

Depending on who the "Buddhists" are, "Buddhism" is no less free of such abuses than Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or Judaism. In my understanding, in South and Southeast Asia, there are great and historical ethnic tensions as in so many parts of the world. In Thailand too, some Muslims sometimes attack Buddhists ... Sad and to be condemned, no matter who is on the receiving end of the hate.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/32983

Sri Lanka is another example of Buddhism all tied up in ethnic and civil war.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17816285

However, let me say that, perhaps, the "Buddhists" of many places in Asia are "Buddhist" in the very same way that folks are any religion anywhere. The Buddhist priests of these areas ... especially the rank and file ... are typically illiterate or barely educated farmers and peasants themselves, not necessarily educated even in "Buddhism" beyond surface beliefs and practices. The way the religion is practiced is not much different from the way religions are practiced about anywhere, and they look at "Buddha" as their god and the Suttas (which most are really not capable of reading, let alone understanding) as their sacred "Holy Book" above all others. Religion becomes all mixed together with "our people" "our tribe" "our beliefs". For this reason, the articles linked to above are a bit misleading, as they give the impression that this is the reality for all "Buddhists" or "Buddhism" in these cultures. It is not so, not any more than all of Islam is represented by Al Qaeda or all Christianity by the situation in Northern Ireland. Most of the rest of the Buddhist Sangha ... not only the senior Buddhist establishments in these countries, but Buddhists around the world ... do condemn any ethnic violence.

What is more, there is the tangled historical question of what actions are aggressive and what are (although perhaps in a mistaken way) defensive. These fights are about land, water rights, population pressures, ethnic tensions ... and it does not matter that the people involved might be "Buddhists" or wear robes or anything else.

Gassho, J

[MyoHo]

Thanks you Jundo for your understanding words.

at first I was going to delete this post but decided not to. I usually never respond on these matters, but feel it has a purpose here. No careful composition and rereading here, just wrote as is.

Safety, prosperity and human dignity come at a huge price is what I've learned. And that's a lot to learn when you are only 19. Let’s just say I have gone through many stages digesting what happened that day. It took a long time, a patient wife and a good minister to learn to see we all did a lot of good too, over there. There are many stories of both tragedy and triumph. I went there as a Bodhisattva, eager to help and make a difference. I’m sad to say most of us came back something very different!

Just to be clear on this, I have also seen true beauty and the raw human ability to endure, love and find hope in the bleakest of times. The capacity we all have to pick up the pieces and start building. Not just rebuild the old but build a better world again. True human spirit is stronger than steel. It remains even in the midst of the fire.
Someone once said the period we were there, was like a whole lifetime violently compressed in a period of six months.(With 'we', I mean our rotation b.t.w.) Maybe as a result of this and other things, compassion and the sense of relativity grew strong. Life is so very precious and so very fragile. Worth appreciating, caring for and protecting to the upmost of our abilities, no matter if it is a friend or a stranger. I try to express this whenever I can. Problem is after all this, is I don’t come across the accessible caring Bodhisattva part much ( being a battle worn soldier never really leaves someone’s eyes and presence) but I’m working on it daily. If the day comes, if need be, I will stand for it all over again.


Scars, sure but at least, among other things, it woke me up to the Dharma in a way. Sitting however is sometimes still is difficult and Mara has her own face in my case.

Guess I’m no Forrest Gump after all I feel I can for once, be more open on this forum then I have been to even some close friends. For once that is, so you guys can understand a bit more about me. I would love to hear your comments on this but hope you understand my reluctance to discuss this in further detail. Besides this Thread is not about me and don’t want it to go that way.

How about those Yankees?

Gassho

Enkyo

[Shokai]

Thank you all for contributing to this thread.

Isn't it strange how we cite religion as the cause of wars when in fact ( remembering all the while that God is on both sides) it is greed, hatred and ignorance that drives it all.

[Andrea1974]

Thank you Enkyo! Sharing such a personal story and the feelings that go with it is not an easy task. It is great that a forum like this one creates an intimate atmosphere where experiences can be exchanged freely.

Gassho, A

[Jundo]

So, please tell me how you differentiate your educated, erudite Buddhism with these Asian fundamentalist Buddhists. Is your lineage superior to theirs? I certainly understand tribal and/or ethnic tensions, concerns over resources, etc. What I am having trouble with, lately, is this sense of superiority. It could be "they" feel they have to stop "the other guys" to save them from committing acts of karmic violence. Maybe, they feel they're saving the people they're attacking/stopping. Why do some of us think we're saving people/the world/the perpetrator if we commit violence to stop violence, but other people's motives couldn't possibly be so pure?
Always hoping for better,
Gassho,
Jenell

We are not superior or inferior, for we are all victims of greed, anger and ignorance. When we see violence, we should condemn it and stop it no matter whether tribal folks in a jungle fighting over the fruit trees or developed countries sending cruise missiles after oil. Violence to stop violence may be necessary in the village too, tragic but understandable.

I am willing to condemn racial or religious bigotry, woman left in ignorance without education, slavery, use of children as soldiers, genocide, torture, a bombing at a race which kills a child, shootings in schools and many other ugly realities around the world perpetrated by people against people ... I condemn them without feeling superior or inferior to the people who do such acts.

Gassho, J