Perspectives on Non-Violence

[Jakugan]

It is interesting to see some of the differing opinions on here.

I'm not sure if the death penalty is compassionate. When talking about self-defence the preservation of one's own or others lives may be at stake. With regards to the death penalty the crime has already been committed and so to put someone to death for committing one seems more like retribution to me.

I am not sure with regards to the case of Bin Laden as I am not sure of the facts. If it was a cold blooded kill planned in advance then I'm with Daizan on that one, it sends the wrong message to the world in my opinion.

Gassho,

Simon

[Amelia]

To kill to continue my own life is almost to say that my existence is more important than that of the person killed.

Interesting perspective.

I have been watching a lot of "The Walking Dead" lately. All this discussion of killing out of compassion, killing in self defense, and killing in anger are all exemplified in that show. It's interesting to watch the characters try to solve these moral dilemmas. Most of these kinds of decisions in the show were made split-second and the character didn't really know if it was right.

We can talk about what we would or wouldn't do in a violent situation, but we won't really know unless we are in one.

The Bin Laden execution was one those moments when State power was undisguised . It was like a mob hit... shot between the eyes and dumped in the ocean. “That's what you get”. Seeing kids partying outside the Whitehouse cast a sickly light on it.

...I also could not help feeling compassion for Gaddafi when he was pulled , confused, from a culvert, then dragged around in the dust to be beaten and shot by maniacs, who were no better than him in that moment.

...Killing in the midst of passion is one thing, but to coolly take someone who is completely under your power, bureaucratically process him, then kill him in a “procedure” with witnesses.... that is monstrous.

Yep

With regards to the death penalty the crime has already been committed and so to put someone to death for committing one seems more like retribution to me.

And, even though justified by the state government, someone still has to live with killing that person.

[Yugen]

Going to have to disagree a little with Daizan. It goes without saying that I respect his opinion but when I read the post it seemed so it is either black and white to me. Comparing bin ladens demise to a mob hit misses the mark for me and seeing the people dance in the streets at his death was sad but not knowing the suffering they endured due to or because of him and terrorist events I can understand it. I have had a close and personal view of devastation caused by greed anger and ignorance due to my law enforcement career.

As for the death penalty...I don't know. Could it be compassion?

I do know this. My nine year has been telling me love is the key to all the problems of the world. My nine year old quoting MLK is wondrous to me . Interesting that she tells her dad this before I go to work.

Is there love in using violence? In using force? How deep is compassion? I vow to keep practicing and to consider all possibilities

Gassho to this thread. Respect to all the opinions

Daido

My practice in Zen Buddhism has led me to be more open to the playing out of karma and the consequences of actions and less firm in judgements of things like the death penalty. I don't like the death penalty; but what of death row inmates who request execution to be relieved of decades of incarceration - which is a form of hell itself? There are no easy absolutes.

In the case of Bin Laden, or other individuals who live violent lives, in terms of cause and effect, it is pretty likely that you will reap what you sow. You can have an opinion as to whether OBLs death was basically a "hit," but you also cannot deny that he reaped the karmic consequences of his actions and lifestyle. Cause and effect become indistinguishable. You can like/not like sanctioned assassinations and executions of whatever form, but what is relevant to me is the unerring and inevitable unfolding of karma. If you steal, kill, lie, or engage in acts of harm, it is inevitable that the seeds of your actions will near bitter fruit for yourself as well as others. These results may take many years to ripen; but they will inevitably present themselves. Piss off the USG the way OBL did and it is a pretty safe bet a clandestine operator will show up in the middle of the night and make you a gift of a double tap.

Actions have consequences. Nature does not express preferences - things unfold according to unerring cause and effect.

Karma unfolding. Policy discussions in the tea room.

Deep bows
Yugen

[Jiken]

My practice in Zen Buddhism has led me to be more open to the playing out of karma and the consequences of actions and less firm in judgements of things like the death penalty. I don't like the death penalty; but what of death row inmates who request execution to be relieved of decades of incarceration - which is a form of hell itself? There are no easy absolutes.

In the case of Bin Laden, or other individuals who live violent lives, in terms of cause and effect, it is pretty likely that you will reap what you sow. You can have an opinion as to whether OBLs death was basically a "hit," but you also cannot deny that he reaped the karmic consequences of his actions and lifestyle. Cause and effect become indistinguishable. You can like/not like sanctioned assassinations and executions of whatever form, but what is relevant to me is the unerring and inevitable unfolding of karma. If you steal, kill, lie, or engage in acts of harm, it is inevitable that the seeds of your actions will near bitter fruit for yourself as well as others. These results may take many years to ripen; but they will inevitably present themselves. Piss off the USG the way OBL did and it is a pretty safe bet a jacked up operator will show up in the middle of the night and make you a gift of a double tap.

Actions have consequences. Nature does not express preferences - things unfold according to unerring cause and effect.

Karma unfolding. Policy discussions in the tea room.

Deep bows
Yugen

Deep Bows

[Jakugan]

I think the problem with the death penalty is that it has to be institutionalized and is therefore open to abuse (ie: can be manipulated bad as well as compassionate intentions).

Also, if someone is requesting to be killed there is no way of knowing if that person has been put under undue pressure to do so (especially in the case of prison). The person being put to death may also be innocent.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Gassho,

Simon

[Yugen]

I do not disagree with you in any way. Point well taken.

Deep bows
Yugen

[Yugen]

@Daizan: I understand your feelings about the manner in which OBLs remains were handled. I am reminded of the story of Achilles and Hector in the Trojan War - after Achilles killed Hector in single combat he dragged the latter's body behind his chariot back and forth before the walls of Troy, to the horror of Hector's family .... Achilles also suffered the opprobrium of his fellow Greeks for his behavior.

Deep bows
Yugen

[RichardH]

My practice in Zen Buddhism has led me to be more open to the playing out of karma and the consequences of actions and less firm in judgements of things like the death penalty. I don't like the death penalty; but what of death row inmates who request execution to be relieved of decades of incarceration - which is a form of hell itself? There are no easy absolutes.

I agree there are no easy absolutes, in fact I have never found an absolute position of any kind, only relative ones. But what I can do is be honest about what feels "right" in accordance with my reason, experience, and gut, and take a position. Zen doesn't mean never taking a position on social and political issues. It does mean I am not under the illusion of being objective in my views. I admired the forthright stand you took over gun violence, and the need for action on guns. Your position influenced my thinking, and that stand is appreciated.

Gassho
Daizan

[Yugen]

Daizan,
I appreciate your thoughtful response. It's funny; I struggled with my post on firearms violence - it was reactive and emotional but to be honest my position has not changed one bit.

Like you, for me there is a powerful social and engaged aspect of my practice. For me Zen is not something to be practiced only on a cushion, it is something to be lived, with passion and integrity. Often there is not a linear logic or objectivity to our positions.

In the course of this journey I have learned that the choices as they are presented to us are often false dichotomies - capital punishment for example. We can have opinions for or against capital punishment but upon reflection for me the real issue is the philosophy pursued in the criminal justice system in the US - is the purpose of incarceration and sentencing punitive, corrective, or rehabilitative? I am very distressed at the fearful, vengeful attitude so prevalent in our society today. And the US has the largest prison population of any of the "industrialized" nations.

My original post was motivated by my recognition of the working of karma, which does not often respect or observe the social and political positions we take or oppose others on. Recognizing karma unfolding has led me to be more circumspect in some cases and see the painful paradoxes in many issues we face today. In a few others it has led me to be very direct and urgent.

Deep bows of respect and gratitude to you for your practice,

Yugen

[RichardH]

My original post was motivated by my recognition of the working of karma, which does not often respect or observe the social and political positions we take or oppose others on. Recognizing karma unfolding has led me to be more circumspect in some cases and see the painful paradoxes in many issues we face today. In a few others it has led me to be very direct and urgent.

I'm a bit heretical in a way. Recognizing karma is iffy, because in the widest sense, there is nothing but karma. It is an absolute, and like all absolutes it disappears up its own backside without leaving a trace. So when I point to the working of karma in the world, I am by necessity being selective in that pointing, because it suits me. The buck just keeps stopping here at this heart. Can't help it.

Maybe that makes no sense, or is a bit loopy, but that's ok. I am not denying karma.


Deep bows and much respect.

Daizan

[Yugen]

Daizan,
I think we pretty much are saying similar things - perhaps coming to it from
our respective vantage points - and it is pleasing to hear it from another perspective. I respect your views a lot. They cause me to stop and reflect. Thank you.

Deep bows
Yugen

[Ed]

I get Daizan ( Kojito to me.) We have been hitting keybaords here and there for some time now. I see him as a gentle, lovely soul, expressing through words and painting sincerity and passion I usually share; and a serious practitioner too.
The Osama thingy tears my heart. To me his name evokes images of people jumping to their death off very tall buildings....like Sysyfus I push that heavy rock only to watch it roll down on the other side when some how the name pops us. I forgive never forget.
My problem with violence among others, as a Buddhist, is with the A word, I dare not mention it here. To me it is a violent act. It amazaes me how Buddhist can carry a dying lizzard out of the zendo to sunlight in solidariyt for the repetile and all beings, but remain indiferent over a cosmetic, quicky problem-solving but brutal, unnatural and inhuman act like that, demanding it be made available on demand.
Never a word on it anywhere. The proverbial elephant in the zazen party.
So, all other "violence condemnation" speech sounds empty.
In gassho to all.

[Jundo]

I would like to share with everyone my rather idealistic dream ... maybe even too radical for the taste of many.

First, I would love to see developed countries such as the United States answer violence ... even something like the destruction of the World Trade Center ... by turning the other cheek, responding by spending the same billions of dollars in the military budget by building schools, hospitals, roads and other "good will" projects in the countries of our enemies, "killing them with kindness" instead of bullets. It would be an all out effort to win the hearts and minds of those who hate.

Of course, I do not see this as a total answer ... and some situations will still need to be met with bombs and armies. That is just the reality. However, military force should be turned to only as a last last resort.

In fact, I think this is very unlikely to happen ... maybe impossible.

My second proposal is even more radical, and may offend some:

Assuming medical and neurological science advances sufficiently far, I would like to see seriously violent criminals (I mean, the truly dangerous), upon being convicted by a jury of citizens, sentenced to a medical procedure such a brain surgery to remove the capability or desire to engage in violent acts. It would only be used after all procedures had been pursued, much as we enforce the death penalty now. They would be rendered harmless, possibly then even released.

While my suggestion may sound frightening to some, I believe it much more civil and humane than tossing people into hell hole prisons and throwing away the key, as we do today.

There is a famous book and movie called Clockwork Orange about a rapist who receives just such a treatment. While that story was ambiguous about the morality of such a medical procedure, I thought it a very good idea.

Again, it would only be in limited cases, after all procedures, and only for the most violent of the violent.

Someday in the future (although in fact, the technical ability may be right around the corner).

Gassho, J

[Shokai]

Jundo;

Clockwork Orange ? Careful how you date yourself.

Actually, recent input indicates the surgery you suggest may soon be viable by injection or aural therapies. And, like you say, could be considered more humane than the existing penal system, Hey, let's start a petition !!

[Mp]

IWhile may suggestion may sound frightening to some, I believe it much more civil and humane than tossing people into hell hole prisons and throwing away the key, as we do today.

I totally agree Jundo! There are so many different conditions to why they did the things they did ... it is important to understand those conditions so we can help them and keep them out of those nasty prisions.

Gassho
Shingen