A very strict word of warning

[Mp]

Hi Willow,

It is worth mentioning, because it is not visible in the general forum, but we have an ongoing training program with our Ordained Priests Novices in which we are attempting to pass on the basic Traditions, History, Skills and Ethical Values that are required of a new Zen Priest. There is an outside observer from our Ethics Committee who can observe. It is something of an experiment, but so far so good. As best we can, we are attempting to implement our Training Guidelines for novice priests, spelled out here (33 pages, PDF):

http://sites.google.com/site/jundotreeleaf/TreeleafPriestTrainingProgram-Jan2010.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

Traditionally, it is simply up to each person's Teacher when (and if ever, no promises) someone is someday authorized as a Teacher after embodying the required knowledge, skills, values and piercing of Practice-Enlightenment.

If you have any questions, maybe some of our Novice Priests might comment here or somewhere on how they feel the training is going. It is not perfect, but even old monasteries in 15th century Japan were far from perfect! It is coming along pretty well I feel.

Gassho, J

Thank you for this link Jundo, it has been helpful to understand the true role of Unsui.

Gassho
Shingen

[Jinyo]

Thanks for the link Jundo - will run off and read through carefully.

Hope it's Ok to make a couple of initial comments.

I feel everyone would gain from hearing more from our Novice Priests. I really enjoy Han's input and Yugen has put me in the direction of some interesting reading from a couple of passing references.

One of the 'methods' mentioned in the document is 'writing, blogging and interaction with others in our sangha' - in order to manifest certain qualities. I'm wondering if a dynamic operates within this in that the qualities of restraint, curbing the ego etc might develop a kind of buddhist alter ego that mitigates against saying very much at all.

The reading list at the end of the document is extensive - there must be a lot of knowledge out there - a lot of discursive thinking taking place. Academic study is positively encouraged. Again a certain tension between thinking and over-thinking/intellectualization might present?

For myself - I would really appeciate our novice priests sharing more of this process - because surely it is a process that many of us here are attempting to negotiate? Many pitfalls and many rich rewards?

Gassho

Willow

[Taigu]

We are heading in that direction Willow, I am also strongly in favor of more participation from our novice priests. Jundo too. It is coming.

Gassho

Taigu

[Dainin]

As a middle school teacher and university professor, I learn from my students constantly. As Taigu suggested, good teachers are open to learning all the time. I tell my student teachers that even though they may one day be considered "master teachers" by others, if they ever consider themselves as such, they better start looking for job at Starbucks.

That said, as a Zen student, I cannot and would not put myself in a position to teach the Dharma, except perhaps by my actions, which I would hope stem from compassion and loving-kindness. At least that's what I'm striving for (in a non-striving way, of course) !

Gassho,
Dainin

[Yugen]

Willow,

"The reading list at the end of the document is extensive - there must be a lot of knowledge out there - a lot of discursive thinking taking place. Academic study is positively encouraged. Again a certain tension between thinking and over-thinking/intellectualization might present?

For myself - I would really appeciate our novice priests sharing more of this process - because surely it is a process that many of us here are attempting to negotiate? Many pitfalls and many rich rewards?"

Hi, I'd like to respond to a few of your questions and share a few of my own impressions. I stress that these impressions are my own and I do not speak for the Unsui - I am a layperson who is preparing to ordain, so I am in a bit of a grey zone - a wonderful zone of ambiguity and groundlessness where I am able to reflect on the direction of my practice and commitment. So my thoughts are my own, misguided, and not reflective of the management.

There is a tension between book learning and direct experience in a tradition that values realization through direct awareness. For all the stories about monks and practitioners stubbing toes, holding silently up lotus blossoms, walking into trees or phone poles and having "experiences," the Zen tradition is certainly full of monastic guides, rules for practice, and stories that transmit the history of repsective lineages. There is a certain amount of reading and writing that is expected in training, and I have had to complete assignments in the pre-ordination period. As an individual who tends to over-intellectualize, this is an easy tendency for me to fall into. I have to be careful not to turn my training and practice into Zen by "book learning..." But we are expected to be conversant with the history, traditions, and practices of Buddhism in general, Zen in particular, and our lineage.

What has made the greatest impression on me is the notion of apprenticeship, one of the core traditions of study and practice. It is difficult to systematize this relationship into a series of certification standards for professional recognition. I am aware that there are efforts in the United States to generate systematic criteria for the training, certification, and recognition of Zen priests. Our priest training guidelines are a genuine and serious effort to incorporate the best of modern method, technology with time honored practice. On the other hand, Zen has always been characterized by lineages, offshoots, and varieties of schools and practices. There is a need in the world for various types of priests and practitioners - monastics in residence, priests out in the world, scholars who will advance the historical record, priests who work in hospice and shelters anonymously, etc. In my own opinion, to attempt to generate a cookie-cutter approach to priest training is to depart entirely from the spirit of Zen.... ironically, standards of training and conduct were used by rulers in China and Japan to "coopt," and politicize religious traditions, in other words, to render them less threatening, and more palatable instruments of power and control. So I find today's efforts to homogenize training standards really interesting. The notion of apprenticeship in a legitimate lineage with a solid teacher is the tradition itself. In certain cases the teacher becomes the student and the student the teacher.

In terms of the shape and content of my own practice, working with the Treeleaf Priest Training Guidelines requires individual initiative and effort - we are all different individuals and a family - siblings with Jundo and Taigu as our "parents." They recognize our differences and hope only that when the day comes and they are no longer around that we can all support and learn from one another. I sit and practice with Treeleaf, my home Zendo with Jundo as my "root teacher.". I also sit at a local Lay Zendo whose resident priest was a student of Suzuki Roshi in San Francisco. Here I am learning how to behave in a more traditional, physical Zendo. Here I function as Doan and Kokyo. The third leg of my practice is increasingly with a local bookshop owner who lived and studied with Gary Snyder, Allen Ginsberg, and Nanao Sakaki. This is the unfettered, "Practice of the Wild" open space Zen that eschews walls, lineages, and clothing.
;-)

Most importantly, I am experiencing a sense of humility and awe - I have been posting very little in this period because I am learning far more by listening and realize that in preparing for a lifetime of study and service what I have to say is nonsense. Right now I feel the best way to practice (and maybe one day) to teach is to just do and to just be..... how to convey that in an online forum is a work in progress....!

I wander. I should stop here. Thank you.

Deep bows
Yugen

[Nengyo]

One of the 'methods' mentioned in the document is 'writing, blogging and interaction with others in our sangha' - in order to manifest certain qualities. I'm wondering if a dynamic operates within this in that the qualities of restraint, curbing the ego etc might develop a kind of buddhist alter ego that mitigates against saying very much at all.

An integrated unsui blog at treeleaf. That would be interesting... I really like the unsui run sits on G+ even though it's been I while since I've made it to one.

[RichardH]

What has made the greatest impression on me is the notion of apprenticeship, one of the core traditions of study and practice. It is difficult to systematize this relationship into a series of certification standards for professional recognition. I am aware that there are efforts in the United States to generate systematic criteria for the training, certification, and recognition of Zen priests. Our priest training guidelines are a genuine and serious effort to incorporate the best of modern method, technology with time honored practice. On the other hand, Zen has always been characterized by lineages, offshoots, and varieties of schools and practices. There is a need in the world for various types of priests and practitioners - monastics in residence, priests out in the world, scholars who will advance the historical record, priests who work in hospice and shelters anonymously, etc. In my own opinion, to attempt to generate a cookie-cutter approach to priest training is to depart entirely from the spirit of Zen.... ironically, standards of training and conduct were used by rulers in China and Japan to "coopt," and politicize religious traditions, in other words, to render them less threatening, and more palatable instruments of power and control. So I find today's efforts to homogenize training standards really interesting. The notion of apprenticeship in a legitimate lineage with a solid teacher is the tradition itself. In certain cases the teacher becomes the student and the student the teacher.

Most importantly, I am experiencing a sense of humility and awe - I have been posting very little in this period because I am learning far more by listening and realize that in preparing for a lifetime of study and service what I have to say is nonsense. Right now I feel the best way to practice (and maybe one day) to teach is to just do and to just be..... how to convey that in an online forum is a work in progress....!

Thank you for these words, Yugen . They are illuminating and inspiring.

Gassho
Daizan

[Yugen]

I like what Brad Warner says: "Zen has to be a little bit dangerous...". I'm not running around in the kitchen with scissors, but I am a Zen toddler whose parents are watching - just enough room to explore but the rat poison and the alcohol are out of reach....!

Deep bows
Yugen

[Mp]

I like what Brad Warner says: "Zen has to be a little bit dangerous...". I'm not running around in the kitchen with scissors, but I am a Zen toddler whose parents are watching - just enough room to explore but the rat poison and the alcohol are out of reach....!

Deep bows
Yugen

Thank you Yugen ... that so reminded me of when I was little and I always put my glass right at the edge of the table during dinner to see what kind of reaction I would get from my Mom. I just got the look ... enough said.

Gassho
Shingen

[Jundo]

An integrated unsui blog at treeleaf. That would be interesting... I really like the unsui run sits on G+ even though it's been I while since I've made it to one.

There is a portion of the Forum that is all theirs (after the first year of training anyway), and I hope they make more use of it.

Unsui's Corner

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?96-Unsui-s-Corner

Gassho, J

[Jinyo]

Thank you for the replies - it helps a great deal to clarify the questions I had.

Yugen - I found your thoughts illuminating. I feel it can only be a positive move for Unsui to share their process and I do hope, as Jundo says, the Unsui's corner becomes more focal. I am already looking forward to Han's discussion on the Lotus Sutra.

I'm sure the input from those members who are training at a deep level (not to discount the motivation, commitment of those members not formally training) will encourage us all in our journey/process.

Thanks again for the opportunity to be part of this Sangha,

Gassho

Willow

[jgolds72]

Greetings,

I have to say this has been an interesting thread to read and it brings to mind a question. First let me state ive been a solo practitioner for years now with my family being my sangha. Ive never preached or pushed the dharma but if im asked about my faith or my practice im willing to share my personal experiences. For instance i sit zazen at the local YMCA twice a week while my youngest has her swim lessons. On a few occassions ive been asked about it and i generally just explain the posture, breathing and letting go of thoughts when they come. This to me is discussion not instruction. But now I'm currious, where is the line between discussion of faith/practice and teaching of faith/practice drawn?

Gassho,
John

[Jundo]

Greetings,

I have to say this has been an interesting thread to read and it brings to mind a question. First let me state ive been a solo practitioner for years now with my family being my sangha. Ive never preached or pushed the dharma but if im asked about my faith or my practice im willing to share my personal experiences. For instance i sit zazen at the local YMCA twice a week while my youngest has her swim lessons. On a few occassions ive been asked about it and i generally just explain the posture, breathing and letting go of thoughts when they come. This to me is discussion not instruction. But now I'm currious, where is the line between discussion of faith/practice and teaching of faith/practice drawn?

Gassho,
John

I have no idea.

Look, on the one hand, no problem with anyone with some experience showing others a bit about posture, the basics of Shikantaza and Zen Practice, and getting them started. We also encourage anyone to organize a sitting group, and it is perfectly fine to show others "the ropes" of sitting and share with others. I guess it is a matter of speaking with common sense within one's comfort zone. That is especially fine if the person makes it clear to listeners that that is all they are doing.

On the other hand, there would be putting on robes while sitting in front of a Buddha statue, giving the impression of being a teacher, and lecturing on old texts, the universe, Dogen and what not. It is just the misleading impression that might be conveyed to some unsuspecting listener that is a concern.

In between, a lot of gray area.

Gassho, J

[RichardH]

In between, a lot of gray area.

That gray area spooks me. On the one hand it is my birthright to speak about this life, this universe... I am after all that very life. On the other hand I demonstrably lack mastery in practice, and have no training in responsible teaching. It seems like a recipe for malpractice, and there is plenty of that going on. I hear it all the time down the hall from where I work . Someone has set herself up as a Buddhist teacher, sending leaflets around the neighborhood. When I asked if she has received any training or has even taken refuge, she said no, and that she teaches from "life experience". I don't begrudge her right to teach.. she doesn't claim to be ordained sangha, but the teachings are a whopper of confused mysticism, and people are coming and listening.

Gassho, Daizan

[Myozan Kodo]

Hi,
In the Christian world the two poles are: the centralised model of the Vatican, with its college of cardinals, and the lone preacher that sets up at the street corner ... more of the broadly Protestant tradition. Don't we work at both poles, and neither?
Gassho
Myozan