A very strict word of warning

[Taigu]

Daizan,

You are pointing at something which is really important. Somewhere in his Genjokoan commentary, Nishiari says that one has to give up everything, even the will to be enlightened, even the ambition to teach and help. One has to completly give it up in our tradition.

One day as I was getting up in my little cottage of Sussex and had the thought:" I am fed up with this, I don t want to receive transmission and be a teacher, I don t want anything of the sort!" This was after two decades of thinking about it, being kind of eager to be able to do it one day. And that fine morning, it all vanished. What a relief, a huge weight had been shifted from my shoulders, I felt so light, so refreshed! An hour later, that very morning, I received a phone call form my teacher telling me to get ready for transmission. I told him that I did not care about transmission, I just wanted to be a simple priest and he could keep it! He then said in a very soft voice: "this is an excellent place to start from."


Gassho


Taigu

[Jinyo]

Hi. I do not know these videos, but this thread, and Taigu's general warning, raises something for me that has been, and is, very important. Where does the desire to teach, to be a teacher, come from? Where does it come from in here? I know what "having a calling" means, and I have one. Yet, I also have urges to preach that are, truth be told, in the service of self-image. Why teach? why preach? Where is it coming from?


.. just a thought from the peanut gallery..


Gassho, Daizan

I think what you say is very interesting and also very honest.

How does one sort out where the need to preach/teach comes from? Is there such a thing as a pure motive or calling?

The process of becoming a teacher in Zen does seem to be a very distinct process - quite different to other callings or vocations. For example - 4 years to be a school teacher/ 5 years a doctor/ 5 years a therapist, 3-4 years a priest.

The more I engage with Zen the more I feel I know no-thing - perhaps that's why it takes so long

Gassho

Willow

[Jishin]

Hi guys,

And the whole thing is about a first year student of a medical school prescribing remedies and advising people. Wouldn t you ask this student to wait et get enough training to be able to do so? And if you ask him to stop and you find out the student is still doing it, what will you do?

Taigu

"if you are caught practicing medicine without a license, a person may face potential prison time of up to five years and a fine of up to $5000.00 per count"

A first year medical student would have to go to 3 more years of medical school to become a doctor. He then would pick a specialty and train under other doctors for another 3 to 7 years in general. Only then, after 24 to to 27 years of education in total would he/she be ready to be an outstanding (or mediocre) doctor ready to practice independent of senior physicians. He/she would then aim for board certification. Hopefully by that time he/she has honed in the ability to be a physician to the best of his ability, whatever that means...

I would be upset at a first year medical student playing doctor.

Gassho,

John

PS: Whenever I point a finger at someone or something, I have 3 pointing back at me!

[Mp]

Thank you Taigu, understood.

Gassho
Shingen

[Myoku]

Thank you Taigu,
an important guidance,
Gassho
Myoku

[Jakudo]

Hi. I do not know these videos, but this thread, and Taigu's general warning, raises something for me that has been, and is, very important. Where does the desire to teach, to be a teacher, come from? Where does it come from in here? I know what "having a calling" means, and I have one. Yet, I also have urges to preach that are, truth be told, in the service of self-image. Why teach? why preach? Where is it coming from?


.. just a thought from the peanut gallery..


Gassho, Daizan

I completely understand Daizan, I have found myself thinking the same thoughts and am struggling with the why question as well.
...from a fellow peanut gallery member
Gassho Jakudo

[Myoshin]

At Japan they study at the Okusawa university to be priest, High studies (not always). In the West we don't. So Who will be the best teacher? Are we lacking 5 years of knowledge here cmoparing to Japan? We need time and knowing a lot why not, let's go to a buddhist university and practice 2 years at a strong sotoshu temple, we'll get then the 5 years studies. If we compare to other jobs like doctors and so one, the one who agrees would be trained like that before saying any word, unless he already got the Transmission ( shiho).
The question here is that the training in the west and in Japan is not the same, we cannot so talk about a comparision between studies like mentionned before.

Nonetheless, I agree we need to ask permission to do some acts, that's not a problem.

Where and how the videos can be found, who is this guy, why did he this? Ask them to announce here who they are, it would be clear and will end to endless commentaries

Gassho

Myoshin

[Taigu]

Life and practice make the teacher, Myoshin.
I don't look at myself being a teacher, my students do.
You could now spend the next 20 years studying, and throw 20 more on top.
Actually, it never stops. A teacher is first and foremost a student. The problem comes from students thinking they can teach.

gassho

Taigu

[Heishu]

Thank you Taigu, understood.

Gassho
Heishu

[Myoshin]

So Taigu, the best is the practicing of the zazen sitting, to make no difference between our life and sitting, to study and this in an endless time.
I agree that a teacher is a student, because nothing is achieved, life is not achieved, and we have to learn from life all our liftime in a sense.
The best is to let the teacher telling us when our understanding becomes a little enough to teach.
I think somehow you are a teacher because you are a life guide in the path, in life, quite the same. I see from below how you actualize zen in your life, far from what I can do for now, and the same as a close friend I admire, and would like to be.
The difficult point is to know how far we can talk about something, just to share a personnal point of vieuw without teaching. If I recommand the fukanzazengi and someone asks me some questions for example.

Take care of you

Gassho

Myoshin

[ZenHarmony]

Hmmm, Myoshin has a point, how do you know when you've crossed that line into teaching? For example, if I explain dukkha to my sister-in-law who is under the impression that Buddhism is depressing because of the basic premise of "life is suffering," am I preaching, teaching or simply explaining a concept?

Gassho,

Lisa

[Jundo]

Hi,

I would like to toss in my own view of Training and being a Teacher. I am afraid that, now as in the past, a bit more is required than lots of Zazen.

Our “Treeleaf Sangha Guidelines for Training Soto Zen Buddhist Clergy” are based on the guidelines of the SZBA, the association of most Soto Zen priests in North America. They state:

The purpose of priest training is to prepare individuals for a life dedicated to exemplifying the Dharma with integrity via empowering them to extend Buddhist teachings and Soto Zen practice out in the world, all in keeping with the traditional teachings of Soto Zen Buddhism and the philosophy of our Lineage.

...

The period of formation that follows upon novice ordination (shukke tokudo) may continue for any number of years prior to possible (although never inevitable) Dharma Transmission, but truly continues as a lifelong endeavor that will sustain individuals dedicated to exemplifying the Dharma and the the Bodhisattva ideal. Completing formal priest training will mean that an individual has internalized the tradition, is capable of transmitting it, and vows to devote her or himself to a life of continuous practice and service.The individual’s dedication to the elements of priest training must enable him or her to maintain a regular, disciplined zazen practice, to instruct and guide others in their practice, to present and discuss the history and teachings of Buddhism and Soto Zen, to perform services and ceremonies in the Soto style as appropriate and required in the circumstance, and to actively nurture and serve both Sangha and the larger community and society.

In addition, priest training must make the individual aware of the highest ethical standards which must always be maintained by a member of the clergy, thereby assisting him or her in maintaining such standards in his or her personal life at all times. Training will also enable the individual to demonstrate personal qualities that inspire trust and confidence and encourage others to practice. Finally, training will enable the individual to clearly understand – and communicate to others – the relationship of Zen teaching and practice to everyday life.

To put it it simply, Zazen is always at the heart, but one has a lot to master and embody about our Teachings, History, Traditions, Ethics and Service in order to be authorized to teach others and carry the torch into the next generation. It takes years. Even though in the west, and especially here at Treeleaf, we are developing vehicles and methods of Training outside the setting of an Asian monastery, the goals remain much the same.

Yes, in our Zen Way, our "teachers" are infinite ... whether a child or old man, the mountains and stars, all we encounter in our lives ... are all "teachers" with something to teach. However, when it come to having mastered and being able to reliably pass on the Zen Teachings and Traditions, years of training are generally required. It always has been (despite a handful of old legends about the odd fellow made Patriarch almost on his first day of practice!). Truly, because peoples' lives and psychological well being are often in our hands, it should not be that different from training as a physician.

I once wrote this:

Can one also inherit these timeless teachings without a teacher and without "formally" being part of a Zen Lineage, or just simply by (as someone proposed) sticking a couple of Sutras in your backpack and hiking the "holy trails of Yosemite"? YES! Of course.

But you are also more likely than not going to end up with someone with their own, very personal and half-baked ideas of these teachings ... someone who is convinced they "figured it out" when (without the sounding board and mirror that having a teacher provides) they are skimming the surface or lost in circles and fooling themselves ... someone who thinks they are a diamond when (without the polishing and shaping of the jeweler-teacher's hand) they remain a diamond in the rough unable to bring out the true brilliance of imperfections.

That does not mean, of course, that every product of a "recognized Lineage" will necessarily end up a shining diamond ... certainly not (there are a lot of questionable folks out there with a "robe and a piece of paper certifying their enlightenment"). However, one is more likely to end up with a well formed "teacher" when the "teacher's teacher" was a gifted teacher who knew how to pass on those teachings, and who had an eye for his students ... could sift out among them the special ones ... could be a good judge of character who could see which students manifested wisdom and compassion and which did not ... all to insure (just a little bit) that things would be left in good hands for the next generation.

I believe there is great value in having some recognized and respected teacher or institution (in modern Dharma Transmission, it is usually a combination of multiple teachers and institutions) approve someone else as a teacher. It is the same reason that you don't want to turn over your heart surgery to anyone with a white coat, but would like to see that the doctor graduated from medical school. It does not mean that the Harvard Graduate doctor will not also screw up your heart transplant, but there is a little level of confidence there that the guy knows what he is doing more than turning your heart surgery over to the butcher in the super market.

Many lineages may have cheapened Dharma Transmission, the more serious lineages tend to take its passing on seriously.

Now, there are many licensed doctors with white coats and fancy degrees who are just butchers, and will do real harm. But there are far more butchers who are just butchers.

BOTTOM LINE: ANYONE IS FREE TO PUBLISH ANYTHING, MAKE A VIDEO OR RIGHT A BLOG. OF COURSE! It is a free society!

But if one has undertaken and is continuing a more formal degree of study and training as sometimes happens, one must be careful not even to be giving the appearance of functioning as a teacher giving talks (wearing robes or Rakusu and such), especially if requested not to as part of that formal study and training. That is especially true if that person could be associated in some viewers' eyes with this place. Based on Taigu's formal relationship with this person, apparently Taigu had already once requested the person not to do so in the past as part of their mutual training together.

This situation will rarely happen,　but it has happened more than once now and we need to be careful.

Gassho, J

[Jinyo]

I can see that wearing robes/rakusu while making a video is a big problem - unless one is a recognised teacher - as Jundo and Taigu are.


I have watched a couple of videos made by members (outside of treeleaf forum) and they just seemed to be a discussion of ideas - not teaching - but a disclaimer at the beginning of recording would perhaps save any ambiguity?


On the question of training, I think Zen still needs to bend a little in the direction of modern day standards of what equates a training - in any field. It feels that to be a practitioner of excellence requires a lot of 'factual' knowledge and understanding of written material/history/tradition/concepts as well as a clear expression of practicing the dharma in one's life in the world. Should this require the writing of essays - active participation in the wider community that can be clearly monitored and observed by supervisors outside/or within the Zen community - as might be required by other training organisations? It's one thing to lay out a document listing what needs to be done but how is it then tested?

I don't know the answers to the above - just questions and thoughts.

Gassho

Willow

[Dokan]

Noted. And gassho to the student who gave us the opportunity to learn.

All good practice.

Dokan

[Jundo]

On the question of training, I think Zen still needs to bend a little in the direction of modern day standards of what equates a training - in any field. It feels that to be a practitioner of excellence requires a lot of 'factual' knowledge and understanding of written material/history/tradition/concepts as well as a clear expression of practicing the dharma in one's life in the world. Should this require the writing of essays - active participation in the wider community that can be clearly monitored and observed by supervisors outside/or within the Zen community - as might be required by other training organisations? It's one thing to lay out a document listing what needs to be done but how is it then tested?

Hi Willow,

It is worth mentioning, because it is not visible in the general forum, but we have an ongoing training program with our Ordained Priests Novices in which we are attempting to pass on the basic Traditions, History, Skills and Ethical Values that are required of a new Zen Priest. There is an outside observer from our Ethics Committee who can observe. It is something of an experiment, but so far so good. As best we can, we are attempting to implement our Training Guidelines for novice priests, spelled out here (33 pages, PDF):

http://sites.google.com/site/jundotreeleaf/TreeleafPriestTrainingProgram-Jan2010.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

Traditionally, it is simply up to each person's Teacher when (and if ever, no promises) someone is someday authorized as a Teacher after embodying the required knowledge, skills, values and piercing of Practice-Enlightenment.

If you have any questions, maybe some of our Novice Priests might comment here or somewhere on how they feel the training is going. It is not perfect, but even old monasteries in 15th century Japan were far from perfect! It is coming along pretty well I feel.

Gassho, J