Spiritual Friendship

[Daitetsu]

Hi Stephanie,

Jundo can, however, de-Stephaniefy Treeleaf, which I think would be best for all. Otherwise I can't guarantee I won't be back here to vent the usual next time Jundo does or says something that bugs me.

You seem to be attached to Jundo.
Isn't one of the main aspects of our practice to let go of attachments?
There are forums with an "Ignore" button. I've always wondered what the sense of this is. IMHO it is quite easy to just ignore/skip posts or persons one doesn't like.

Gassho,

Timo

PS: In your above statement you almost seem to beg to be taken out of Treeleaf. However, wouldn't it be easy to just re-register with a different name? What would be the sense of it?
I really don't want to insinuate anything, but I have the impression that you want this to happen so you can say in other places on the net that Jundo threw you out (who need martyrs nowadays?). If I am wrong with this, I want to apologize - this is just my impression.

[Hogen]

And I agree I have become an unintentional troll here.

on the contrary, Stephanie; as long as I've been here on Treeleaf, I've rarely seen you act unintentionally or absentmindedly. For better or for worse, you put it out there for all to see.

Unfortunately, I believe you carry some baggage into Treeleaf that you refuse to unpack. If you choose (or choose not) to detach yourself from this cycle of whatever it is between you and Jundo, I wish you well.

[Heishu]

You said it right there Stephanie ... Accept things/people as they are ... if you can't, then understand that the issue of not accepting maybe within yourself and not outside yourself.

Be well.

Gassho
Michael

Wise words Michael.

Gassho
Alan

[Heishu]

What a roller coaster ride this thread has been but then that is what everyday life is. The thread begins with words of spiritual friendship but quickly dissolves into a frenzy of words that brings reality back in place. When I first arrived here I detected the reality of the real world that existed here and that is what helped me decide that maybe this was a place to learn and practice. I noticed the occassional battle of minds with words that were a bit abrasive in tone. I admit that it made me question myself as to if I had made the right choice in a desire to be a part of this Sangha. The reason I am still here is because I look upon life as a teacher. Each person that posts words here is a teacher and for me each person is a student. It does not make me a robot that inputs data and makes me mindless. It just makes me look at the value of what each person has to say. It matters not if I thought it right or wrong, it only matters that I place value on the person who said it.

It was mentioned that some forums have an ignore feature. If I don't read the words that someone posts then I have ignored that person but for me if I don't read the words then I will not learn from them. I admit this thread has raised a bunch of questions for me but I hope that I will learn from everyone the answers.

Something that I was pondering last night, if we as a sangha could secretly vote someone off for whatever reason from the Sangha if I would still be a member. (There is no need for anyone to answer this for I did not mention this in a way to boost my ego.)

As to the comment directed towards our teacher Jundo, I learned from that. I learned that Jundo is not perfect and neither am I. Jundo is my teacher and I am grateful to him for accepting me as his student.

Gassho,
Alan

[Jundo]

Let's just keep it simple: I agree that I shouldn't be posting here and have tried to keep myself from doing so, but cannot. I think it would be doing the community a service to delete my registration, as I cannot do so myself. The truth is I have had a bad taste in my mouth about Jundo ever since I found my own spiritual practice done such a disservice here and after I was labelled mentally ill, condescended to, and booted for struggling with sincere spiritual questions. I am not sure what fuels my ongoing irritation with Jundo / Treeleaf because all that stuff is so far in the rearview. I think it just registered so strongly how what I got at Treeleaf was the opposite of what I needed spiritually at the time. I must feel that there is something 'wrong' about all this on some nonverbal level as when I think about it intellectually it seems so quaint and quixotic. As I've found far more in the Zen world that speaks to me than what doesn't. But it certainly doesn't help that wherever else I go on the Internet to connect with the online Zen world is, there Jundo is with his ten cents - Zen Forum International, Hardcore Zen, Wild Fox Zen, Sweeping Zen, often popping up to chastise or call out another Zen figure. I wonder if I was not constantly exposed to Jundo on blogs and forums if I would still retain this level of irritation. I was really excited to find Dosho Port's blog as he was expressing something I found inspiring, but there Jundo is in the comments with the usual. Always making the case for how Treeleaf and his style is exactly what is needed, especially when there is another scandal. I don't agree, and I am not alone in that. Anyway, I know it is a silly, quixotic thing. And I agree I have become an unintentional troll here. A foolish Quixote driving everyone into their defensive positions. People either want to wake up, or not; people either have questions, or don't. I can't make anyone else other than what they are just as they cannot make me other than what I am. Jundo really does push my buttons and probably always will. If I could de-Jundofy the blogs I read, I would. But I can't. Jundo can, however, de-Stephaniefy Treeleaf, which I think would be best for all. Otherwise I can't guarantee I won't be back here to vent the usual next time Jundo does or says something that bugs me. And as far as Chet goes - he does not need me to defend him and didn't ask me to post, but did talk to me about his frustration with what happened, and it bugged me, and I reacted. My report is exactly what Chet told me. It seems Chet has softened his take since it happened, and I agree it's probably for the best.

Stephanie,

I hope you find the way of Practice right for you, and what you are seeking. You are always welcome here, but of course, you would be expected to Practice as we Practice here.

I must disagree with you on one point. You wrote ...

Treeleafers don't seem to have - a living Question, a fire that keeps him looking at everything and asking 'What is this?' ... The culture here rewards complacence and passivity. ... it is a matter of not letting oneself fall asleep.

All of us come to this Practice because of living Questions, and all through this Practice we sit with the Questions, the Doubt ... birth, death, war, peace, the beauty and ugliness of this world. Zen provides no answers, nor do we ever stop questioning. We sit with the Questions. Life will always be birth, death and all the rest.

All that Buddhist Teachings point to is Liberation, something beyond, in, as and shining through-and-through all the divisions and friction of birth and death, beauty vs. ugliness, "me" and "you". There is a Peace at the heart of the terrible war that leaves us shattered. The Questions drop away, and all that remains is Holy Whole Whirling Interpenetrating. In order to reach such state, our Practice is to recognize and drop the mental "soap opera", the tail chasing self-flagellation of our constant divisive thoughts and judgments and verbal diarrhea.

Yet, far from numbness or sleep ... far from staying there, in some still still state ... we must rise up from the cushion to live vibrantly, wholeheartedly in the world of birth-death, war, peace, beauty, ugliness ... constant Questions. Zen Practice is actually a way of existential living on the razor's edge of now, embracing the unknown and constant Questions & Doubt dividing this moment from the next.

How dare you accuse the people here of being complacent and passive ... the cancer survivors, those struggling to recover from addictions or trauma, those who have lost a parent or child, the folks just trying to get 'er done at honest work each day or raise a family! They are here precisely because of the "Question" that never leaves us .... what is THIS all about?

A monk asked Master Kaku of Roya,
"If the essential state is pure and clear, then why do mountains, rivers and the
great earth arise?"
Kaku said,
"If the essential state is pure and clear, then why do mountains, rivers and the
great earth arise!"

WHY indeed!

Sometimes what appears a QUESTION is truly an AFFIRMATION!

Please do not let me bother you if you stumble across me here and there. Just another of life's little ugly, I suppose, that you should sit with. I will wait for a few days and, if I do not hear from you, Stephanie, I will also remove your account as requested, our way of taking your Zafu and eating bowls out of our sitting hall, and wishing you well as you head on your way. However, you too are always welcome back, or to remain in our sitting hall, if you would like to sit as we sit here.

Gassho, Jundo

[RichardH]

And I agree I have become an unintentional troll here.

. Few people set out to troll. ... it is just a dysfunctional attachment that won't end, and can't develop .... it is very "borderline". Even making a huffy exit is way continuing the attachment (been there ,done that, ). My point about what would get the boot in B+M sangha is very true in most places. Though people can be afraid to say anything because they don't want to be judgmental or non-accepting (which is odd because they are plenty judgmental and non-accepting about any number of things on a given day).

Any way. Treeleaf is the trailblazer.. of online Sangha.. This all in the growing. I am very grateful for the whole thing.


Gassho. kojip