faust / zen

[nealc]

Thanks for all the discussion. I too understand, intellectually, that the money can't bring joy or happiness, whereas the teachings can help one accept life and its troubles, which can be more valuable. But in reality, I personally would have difficulty turning down $61B and going to work the next day and telling my kids that they too will have to work for most of their lives and so on because I feel it's better to sit on a folded blanket (haven't sprung the $90 for a real zafu) for no gain for some minutes every day. Might not I be acting selfishly in that sense, in grasping for my zazen time instead of throwing it away?

Perhaps I appreciate the zen in my mind, but not in my marrow, you might say. My kids and I may very well be better off without the money, so they don't wind up like any number of rich celebrities who go to drugs etc. But nobody directly said they would turn eg $61B down and go sit on their cushion, no regrets, which is the Faustian question. Neither did anyone say they would take the money.

[Risho]

Although it does increase consumer debt, the clamor for consumer goods isn't what messed us up in 2008. When goods get too expensive, demand does eventually drop. When assets increase in price (such as the housing market) it actually drives demand higher. Gains on assets drive demand for assets because of the gains - and then you get a bubble and a bust.

We shouldn't focus on money, IMHO, but if you make more money, you can then give more money - affecting causes and lives that the market rarely serves.

Chet

I agree with this. I also think that if one is financially successful, that shouldn't be a barrier to anything either. It's just another condition of this life, they aren't mutually exclusive. I just don't understand living an awakened life or being wealthy as an either or condition. Shakyamuni's path also taught that we shouldn't hold to one extreme. One needn't grasp for wealth, but if they happen to wealthy, I don't see that necessarily as a barrier either. If someone gave you lots of money and said you'd never gain understanding, then they'd be a liar. Just by living life and being aware you are going to gain understanding. It's only us that stand in our own way of that; no one can prevent you from that; any more than one needs another's approval; we all think for ourselves. And just as we shouldn't grasp or push away thoughts or try to add or remove anything, why push away material gain? Again, we shouldn't grasp at it in the spirit of greed.

Right now there is a trend towards "minimalist" lifestyles which are great. But where one draws the line in minimalism is a personal choice, and I don't agree that oh wow I own this and that, that's "bad". That's just another construct we place in our minds. It too can be another prison toward grasping. I find it interesting that "minimalists" blog. "Oh I don't own a computer, I use one at the local internet cafe." I just find it funny.. What one considers minimalist, another may consider wealth. I think there can be value in frugality, I personally live by frugality as well, but turning it into another thing to grasp, another religion (which we are so good at), is just another form of grasping or greed, although it may be much more subtle. So you own a lot of stuff. So what? Why does it bother you so much? That I find more interesting. But we often want to up and remove everything we own. I say, you know what, I happen to like my stuff. There are memories there. It doesn't mean that I'm owned by my stuff. If it got stolen it wouldn't be the end of my world. I don't need to participate in any more of extremism (minimalism or gluttony) to sate my ego. And I think that this trend in minimalism is another ego booster under the covers. Not always, but I think it can be another ego toy to distract us... the same as mindlessly buying stuff is.

There is nothing more inherently "zen" or whatever one wants to call it about being poor than rich. Just two sides of the same coin. We may romanticize poverty as a doorway to some enlightened bs state, but we usually do that while we are sipping our latte's.

Sacredness and mundanity... what is not sacred? The same thing with wealth.. That's like saying we need to retreat to the mountains to really practice. Bull. Practice is right with us now.. even though we might romanticize otherwise. If we can't find practice wherever we are, in the subway or at home in the suburbs with all of our stuff, then we can't find it anywhere.

Gassho,

Risho

PS I also believe the american dream is a delusion. Grasping at or pushing away is delusion: ideas, material items, anything.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Are we grasping for economic security, because the inner security that comes from knowing one's true nature is missing?

Are we grasping for material comforts, because we don't feel comfortable with ourselves and look for something outside ourselves to make us more comfortable?

I think so.

Having enough money to put food on the table every day takes away a lot of anxiety, but after the basic needs are covered, the endless chase after more and more may instead become a cause for stress and anxiety. More comforts don't improve our happiness in the long run, only briefly. We soon get used to them and find other imagined needs to fulfill. Economic security doesn't take away the inner sense of insecurity either, the Dukkha. Instead, money may lead to more anxiety. Suddenly you worry about stock market quotes instead of enjoying your economic security. Money can be used wisely, but can also make one's life more complicated in so many ways.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Hoyu]

Hi All,

Just wanted chime in one this one

First off we aren't rich and our family of 4 lives off the $31,000 I make a year! However, we are fortunate that my wife's father(who grew up poor and with so little education he didn't even learn to read) made himself into a rich man. He passed on before I met my wife but his hard work has been far reaching. Our lives have been made so much more comfortable in so many ways because of him! Though he has passed from this visible world, he is still supporting generations of families! And that is exactly what drove him to work so hard to make lots of money in the first place. He used his wealth to take care of the lives of his family, employees and their families, buisness partners, and the country. In fact my wife once told me that he loved his country so much that he was happy to make lots of money so he could pay more and more taxes!
Money, in and of itself, is really nothing more than a tool. Like any tool it's possesor can choose to use it to hurt....or help countless beings!

Gassho,
Hoyu

[disastermouse]

Thanks for all the discussion. I too understand, intellectually, that the money can't bring joy or happiness, whereas the teachings can help one accept life and its troubles, which can be more valuable. But in reality, I personally would have difficulty turning down $61B and going to work the next day and telling my kids that they too will have to work for most of their lives and so on because I feel it's better to sit on a folded blanket (haven't sprung the $90 for a real zafu) for no gain for some minutes every day. Might not I be acting selfishly in that sense, in grasping for my zazen time instead of throwing it away?

Perhaps I appreciate the zen in my mind, but not in my marrow, you might say. My kids and I may very well be better off without the money, so they don't wind up like any number of rich celebrities who go to drugs etc. But nobody directly said they would turn eg $61B down and go sit on their cushion, no regrets, which is the Faustian question. Neither did anyone say they would take the money.

Better in relation to what? Suppose you could grant your children a life free from toil with the $61 billion. Can you grant them freedom from fear of their inevitable old age, disease, and death? The loss of friends and family?

Also, the money itself isn't the better part of what causes 'successful' people to esteem themselves highly, if in fact they do. It's the journey from average to above-average that brings the most satisfaction - the costs paid, the determination and skills required, etc. Truly, it is an egoic game of achievement - but the game is the achievement, not the actual money. The money is only the 'score'.

I would turn down $61 billion if it meant I could no longer practice zazen.

Chet

[Jundo]

This may be a good time to repost some of the Buddha's advice to householders on wealth. The Buddha did teach one path for homeleavers ... having nothing much besides a robe on their back and a begging bowl. But he also taught another path for lay folks on whom Buddha & the Band depended to supply the robes, offer land for the monasteries, put food in those bowls.

Buddha's basic point comes down to ... if one has wealth, use it for good purposes ... don't live to excess ... and don't be attached. Zen traditionally values also the simple, intangible treasures of life ... the things which money cannot buy.

In the Dighajanu Sutta, when the lay man Dighajanu asked the Buddha on how to have “happiness & well-being” in this life, the Buddha offered the following advice;

[The Blessed One said:] "There are these four qualities ... that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in this life. Which four? Being consummate in initiative, being consummate in vigilance, admirable friendship, and maintaining one's livelihood in tune.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in initiative? There is the case where a lay person, by whatever occupation he makes his living — whether by farming or trading or cattle tending or archery or as a king's man or by any other craft — is clever and untiring at it, endowed with discrimination in its techniques, enough to arrange and carry it out. This is called being consummate in initiative.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in vigilance? There is the case when a lay person has righteous wealth — righteously gained, coming from his initiative, his striving, his making an effort, gathered by the strength of his arm, earned by his sweat — he manages to protect it through vigilance [with the thought], 'How shall neither kings nor thieves make off with this property of mine, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' This is called being consummate in vigilance.

"And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship.

"And what does it mean to maintain one's livelihood in tune? There is the case where a lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income.' Just as when a weigher or his apprentice, when holding the scales, knows, 'It has tipped down so much or has tipped up so much,' in the same way, the lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income.' If a lay person has a small income but maintains a grand livelihood, it will be rumored of him, 'This clansman devours his wealth like a fruit-tree eater.' If a lay person has a large income but maintains a miserable livelihood, it will be rumored of him, 'This clansman will die of starvation.' But when a lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income,' this is called maintaining one's livelihood in tune.

"These are the four drains on one's store of wealth: debauchery in sex; debauchery in drink; debauchery in gambling; and evil friendship, evil companionship, evil camaraderie. Just as if there were a great reservoir with four inlets and four drains, and a man were to close the inlets and open the drains, and the sky were not to pour down proper showers, the depletion of that great reservoir could be expected, not its increase. In the same way, these are the four drains on one's store of wealth: debauchery in sex; debauchery in drink; debauchery in gambling; and evil friendship, evil companionship, evil camaraderie.

...

"There are these four qualities that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in lives to come. Which four? Being consummate in conviction, being consummate in virtue, being consummate in generosity, being consummate in discernment.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in conviction? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge and conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine and human beings, awakened, blessed.' This is called being consummate in conviction.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in virtue? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from illicit sexual conduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants that cause heedlessness. This is called being consummate in virtue.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of miserliness, living at home, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms. This is called being consummate in generosity.

"And what does it mean to be consummate in discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising and passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of [Dukkha suffering]. This is called being consummate in discernment

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.054.than.html

[Mp]

Thank you for this Jundo, great stuff.

Gassho
Michael

[Jundo]

By the way, a monastery promised a life of frugality, simplicity, lack of personal property ...

But I think it would be a mistake to think that the wandering monks of India 2500 years ago, or the monks of China, Tibet and Japan in centuries past, lived necessarily uncomfortable lives ... by the standards of the times anyway. Being a monk was not necessarily "giving it all away" to live in total hunger and poverty ... by the standards to the times anyway.

Think about it: In a world without cars, color television, ipods ... it was not like people "gave up all that" to enter the monastery, for nobody had them to start with!

A monastery promised room and board, good companionship, stable food, health care and dentistry (as it existed at the time, anyway), some social position, basic education, not to mention a stimulating intellectual and spiritual environment. Monks personally owned little perhaps ... but there were ways for monks to keep some personal property "off the books", and vast land holdings and other property was owned by the community, much like a Kibbutz or commune. Sure, there may have been folks like Gautama Buddha who walked away from the harem and palace to enter the monastery ... but for most folks, the alternative was working as a peasant or serf, hand to mouth in a trade, dying in bloody military service. A high percentage of the monks seem to have been the second or third sons of wealthy families who were "on their own" after the first son inherited dad's fiefdom. Even being a "rich person" in those days meant insecurity, and a life of struggle and "doing without the conveniences" by modern standards. The Chinese, Tibetan and Japanese government actually had to make rules for keeping people out of the monasteries ... cause so many wanted to get in and escape their life of toil and troubles.

In old India and South Asia, where folks were willing to fill a bowl whenever you knocked at their door, where the weather was temperate, one could simply sleep under a tree in the forest (except in the rainy season when monks would gather together under roofs). Yes, the monks would not eat a bite after noon ... but they got up with the cock crow, so that was already late in their day.

Sure, there were times at Eiheiji and other places where the donations were running low, when the pantry was empty and the monks went to bed hungry ... but that was usually at times when all the surrounding economy was in trouble, so the donations dried up. In other words, there may have been hunger in the monastery ... but you should have seen what was probably going on outside the monastery doors, with real hunger and plague among the general population!

Thus Buddha wrote many places in the Suttas ... "Household life is crowded and dusty; life gone forth is wide open."

A very interesting read is this critique of monk culture in South Asia by Ven. Shravasti Dhammika, a westerner who is himself now a Theravada monk. This is from his book ...

‘Boredom, no doubt, accounts for the inordinate amount
of sleeping one sees in monasteries - monks are forever taking naps - as well as for the dullness and
apathy frequently encountered in them. I suspect too, that those...who practice alchemy, medicine,
exorcism and...politics, do so not only for the intrinsic interest of the subject, but as an escape from
the tedium of monastic living. Similarly, boredom probably accounts for the great interest monks
show in visitors.’ Others take a different escape route. In a survey of monks in Thailand
anthropologist J. C. Ingersoll found that boredom was the main reason why young men left the
Sangha. When Somerset Maugham was traveling through Burma he had an interpreter who had
spent time in a monastery during his youth. Maugham asked him what he thought of the monk’s
life. ‘He shrugged his shoulders. “There was nothing to do”, he said. “Two hours work in the
morning and there were prayers at night, but all the rest of the day nothing. I was glad when the
time came for me to go home again.”’ And of those who stay behind their natural youthful
exuberance is gradually crushed under the weight of tradition and of having lay people doing
everything for them, and before long they begin doing what he sees the older monks doing - they
sleep.
You could hardly believe it possible for human beings to sleep so much until you’ve spent time in a
Theravada monastery. The most enduring images I have of my years in monasteries is of Burmese
monks dozing in chairs while their devotees massage their feet, of Thai monks lying flat on their
backs snoring at ten in the morning and of somnolent old nayaka hamdarus in Sri Lanka getting out
of bed for lunch and going straight back again after it is over. The English monk Phra Peter relates
an amusing incident he witnessed when a junior monk was paying respects to his senior with the
traditional three bows. The first bow went okay, the second was somewhat slower and during the
third bow the monk drifted off and remained fast asleep on the floor. This pervasive slothfulness is
a logical consequence of the Vinaya notion that monks must have everything done for them To
quote Spiro again. ‘Almost all his needs are satisfied by others, without his doing - or being
permitted to do - anything on his own behalf. As we have seen, he does no work; he does not earn
his own bread; even if he wants to, he cannot so much as pour his tea or lift his serving bowl, let
alone tend his garden or repair his monastery. Everything he needs must be given to him by others;
everything that he desires must be provided him by others. Moreover, others not only must provide
for the monk, but in fact they do provide for him, and - as we have seen - with lavish hand’ (italics
in the original).
The almost complete absence of physical exercise coupled with the rich diet is probably the reason
for the abnormally high incidence of diabetes amongst older Sri Lankan monks. A study released in
2002 showed that the leading cause of death amongst Thai monks was smoking related illnesses.
Having little else to do they while away their time sleeping, chatting and puffing on Klongtips [cigarettes].

http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berlin.de/downloads/brokenbuddhanew.pdf

His blog:

http://sdhammika.blogspot.jp/

Because of changes in the economic system for monasteries in China, Korea and Japan, the Northern Asian monasteries emphasized work and physical labor more then the South Asian traditions. If the monks did not grow some vegetables, they did not eat. The saying was "A day without work, is a day with eating". At a few wonderful monasteries in Japan today, such as Antaiji, the practitioners are expected to spend as much time in mud picking vegetables as on the Zafu. However, even then, most of the economic support for the monks in most Chinese, Korean and Japanese monasteries seems to have come from donations or from the labor of poor serfs who worked on temple owned lands ... not from the monks themselves.

http://eh.net/content/sacred-economies-buddhist-monasticism-and-territoriality-medieval-china-0

Yes, value frugality, simplicity, the intangible treasures in life. However, do so whether in the monastery or in your own living room!

Gassho, J

[Mp]

Yes, value frugality, simplicity, the intangible treasures in life. However, do so whether in the monastery or in your own living room!

Gassho
Michael

[Jundo]

Some of the best guidance on living moderately and non-attached ... whether with much money or little ... is from Buddha via Master Dogen in Shobogenzo Hachi-Dainingaku ... outlining important points of our Practice.

Dogen Zenji writes:


The first is having few desires. Not pursuing intensively the things we
have not yet gained among the objects of the five senses is called "having few desires"

The Buddha said,

Monks, you should know that people who have many
desires avariciously seek after fame and wealth; therefore
they experience great suffering and anguish. Those who have
few desires, because they have nothing to pursue and desire,
are free from such troubles. Having few desires is itself worth
learning and practicing. All the more so, as it gives birth
to various virtues. Those who have few deslres do not flatter´
to gain others' favor Also, they are not pulled by their
desire for gain. The mind of those who practice having few
desires is peaceful, without any worries or fears. They are
always affluent with whatever they have and never have a
sense of insufficiency. Those who have few desires experience
nirvana. This is called “few desires"

The second is to know satisfaction. Even among things
which have already been given, you set a limit for taking
them. This is called“knowing satisfaction.''

The Buddha said,

“Monks, if you want to be free from suffering and
anguish, you should contemplate knowing how much is
enough. The dharma of knowing satisfaction is the place of
richness, joy, peace, and calm. Those who know satisfaction,
even when they lie down on bare ground, still consider it
comfortable and joyful. Those who don't know satisfaction
are discontented even when they live in a heavenly palace.
Those who do not know satisfaction are poor even if they
have much wealth. Those who know satisfaction are rich
even if they are poor. Those who don't know satisfaction
are constantly pulled by the five sense desires and pitied
by those who know satisfaction. This is called `knowing
satlsfactlon”.

[SDorje]

I believe it was in a book I read years ago named "What the Buddha Taught" that there was actually some guidelines for lay practitioners by the Buddha on percentages of money/goods that should be used in certain ways and for certain expenses. It was kind of interesting.....Now I need to find the book!!!!

[Jundo]

Hi SD,

I think this is the portion of the book you mean. "What the Buddha Taught" presents an interpretation of "What the Buddha Taught" primarily from one Theravadan perspective, but is a very good book. (pp 83-84, my highlights):

A man named Dighajanu once visited the Buddha and said:
'Venerable Sir, we are ordinary lay men, leading the family life
with wife and children. Would the Blessed One teach us some
doctrines which will be conducive to our happiness in this world
and hereafter.'
The Buddha tells him that there are four things which are
conducive to a man's happiness in this world: First: he should
be skilled, efficient, earnest, and energetic in whatever profession
he is engaged, and he should know it well (uttbana-sampada);
second: he should protect his income, which he has thus earned
righteously, with the sweat of his brow (arakkba-sampadd); (This
refers to protecting wealth from thieves, etc. All these ideas should
be considered against the background of the period.) third: he
should have good friends (kalyana-mitta) who are faithful,
learned, virtuous, liberal and intelligent, who will help him along
the right path away from evil; fourth: he should spend reasonably,
in proportion to his income, neither too much nor too little,
i.e., he should not hoard wealth avariciously, nor should he be
extravagant—in other words he should live within his means
(samajivikata).
Then the Buddha expounds the four virtues conducive to a
layman's happiness hereafter: (i) Saddha: he should have faith
and confidence in moral, spiritual and intellectual values; (2)
S i / a : he should abstain from destroying and harming life, from
stealing and cheating, from adultery, from falsehood, and from
intoxicating drinks; (3) Caga: he should practise charity,
generosity, without attachment and craving for his wealth; (4)
Patina: he should develop wisdom which leads to the complete
destruction of suffering, to the realization of Nirvana.
Sometimes the Buddha even went into details about saving
money and spending it, as, for instance, when he told the young
man Sigala that he should spend one fourth of his income on his
daily expenses, invest half in his business and put aside one fourth
for any emergency.
Once the Buddha told Anathapindika, the great banker, one of
his most devoted lay disciples who founded for him the celebrated
Jetavana monastery at Savatthi, that a layman, who leads an
ordinary family life, has four kinds of happiness. The first
happiness is to enjoy economic security or sufficient wealth
acquired by just and righteous means (attki-sukha); the second is
spending that wealth liberally on himself, his family, his friends
and relatives, and on meritorious deeds (bhoga-sukha); the third to
be free from debts (anana-sukha); the fourth happiness is to live a
faultless, and a pure life without committing evil in thought, word
or deed (anavajja-sukha). It must be noted here that three of these
kinds are economic, and that the Buddha finally reminded the
banker that economic and material happiness is 'not worth one
sixteenth part' of the spiritual happiness arising out of a faultless
and good life.
From the few examples given above, one could see that the
Buddha considered economic welfare as requisite for human
happiness, but that he did not recognize progress as real and true
if it was only material, devoid of a spiritual and moral foundation.
While encouraging material progress, Buddhism always lays
great stress on the development of the moral and spiritual
character for a happy, peaceful and contented society.

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=_WduwVbiLSsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=what+the+buddha+taught&source=bl&ots=Vdz2mrdTia&sig=3YjvbHEIc-ggLVFMzCFBzrheoDI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3tJyUJjmKcmaiQe5moHwCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

[galen]

Are we grasping for economic security, because the inner security that comes from knowing one's true nature is missing?

Are we grasping for material comforts, because we don't feel comfortable with ourselves and look for something outside ourselves to make us more comfortable?

I think so.

Having enough money to put food on the table every day takes away a lot of anxiety, but after the basic needs are covered, the endless chase after more and more may instead become a cause for stress and anxiety. More comforts don't improve our happiness in the long run, only briefly. We soon get used to them and find other imagined needs to fulfill. Economic security doesn't take away the inner sense of insecurity either, the Dukkha. Instead, money may lead to more anxiety. Suddenly you worry about stock market quotes instead of enjoying your economic security. Money can be used wisely, but can also make one's life more complicated in so many ways.

Gassho,
Pontus

Thank you, Pontus.

[Nindo]

I thank everybody for their sincere personal stories. As for the original question - why speculate? Why hold yourself up with something like this? There are so many choices right in front of us that HAVE to be made and will have an impact. That's what we learn as we study for Jukai.
Which job will you take? What will you spend money on? Is it wiser to buy another Dharma book or donate that amount? And so on. I think that's what everybody was pointing at, instead of "answering" the hypothetical question.

As for the original Faust tale, I think Gretchen should have stuck with her decision to go home alone!!

[YuimaSLC]

Jundo and/or Taigu,

What can you tell us about Vimalakirti, a contemporary of Shakamuni Buddha, who is oft presented as the great lay buddhist, with wealth and all.

I often think that a companion to the 'golden rule' is 'need what you take, take what you need' approach to materialism. And being willing to ask an honest question of
"do I really need that?" and an honest resolve to that ongoing question.

We often see overt reaction, in this country, to any talk of increased taxation to help others. And most people think that taking away a little more from one's own pockets is
an intolerable compromise. Yet, when we look at what people have, what they accumulate, what they are willing to pay for a pair of jeans, or how often they replace their computer
or cell phone with the latest-and-greatest version.....in fact, there seems to a significant amount of disposable income in this nation. Alot.

Gassho

Richard