faust / zen

[Saijun]

Word on that man... what's also crazy is how some companies pay laborers so little for their work yet mark up their products a lot. ok I'm not using specifics, but we outsource labor to poor nations. It's basically a form of legalized slave labor in my opinion.

Hello Risho,

For what it's worth, some of the practices of some companies (Foxconn springs to mind) aren't legal in the slightest--the question is one of politicians being willing to take on the corporations, which is a much bigger and more difficult issue.

In Gassho,

Saijun

[galen]

Word on that man... what's also crazy is how some companies pay laborers so little for their work yet mark up their products a lot. ok I'm not using specifics, but we outsource labor to poor nations. It's basically a form of legalized slave labor in my opinion.

It is the main goal of conservatism, esp here in the states. While mostly, religiously zealot, they hide behind the god of money. Its never about the whole, its every man for himself, get out of my way, including the environment.

[Risho]

We often see overt reaction, in this country, to any talk of increased taxation to help others. And most people think that taking away a little more from one's own pockets is
an intolerable compromise. Yet, when we look at what people have, what they accumulate, what they are willing to pay for a pair of jeans, or how often they replace their computer
or cell phone with the latest-and-greatest version.....in fact, there seems to a significant amount of disposable income in this nation. Alot.

Word on that man... what's also crazy is how some companies pay laborers so little for their work yet mark up their products a lot. ok I'm not using specifics, but we outsource labor to poor nations. It's basically a form of legalized slave labor in my opinion.

[Jundo]

What can you tell us about Vimalakirti, a contemporary of Shakamuni Buddha, who is oft presented as the great lay buddhist, with wealth and all.

I often think that a companion to the 'golden rule' is 'need what you take, take what you need' approach to materialism. And being willing to ask an honest question of
"do I really need that?" and an honest resolve to that ongoing question.

Hi Y,

Yes, Vimalakirti, the Greatest of All Buddhists out in the world, who in his Sutra runs Enso rings around the other Great Bodhisattvas ... was LOADED! However, his relationship to his wealth and his use for it is the key. The Sutra describes a fellow who was quite active in the world, even visiting the bars and casinos, a family man, a sharp dresser, and well loved by all ... yet always able to convey an example of the Buddha Way ... [Burton Watson Translation] ...

Desiring to save others, he employed the excellent expedient of residing in [the town of] Vaishali. His immeasurable riches he used to relieve the poor, his faultless observation of the precepts served as a reproach to those who would violate prohibitions. Through his restraint and forbearance he warned others against rage and anger, and his great assiduousness discouraged all thought of sloth and indolence. Concentrating his single mind in quiet meditation, he suppressed disordered thoughts; through firm and unwavering wisdom he overcame all that was not wise.

Though dressed in the white robes of a layman, he observed all the rules of pure conduct laid down for monks, and though he lived at home, he felt no attachment to the threefold world. One could see he had a wife and children, yet he was at all times chaste in action; obviously he had kin and household attendants, yet he always delighted in withdrawing from them. Although he wore jewels and finery, his real adornment was the auspicious marks; although he ate and drank like others, what he truly savored was the joy of meditation.

If he visited the gambling parlors, it was solely to bring enlightenment to those there; if he listened to the doctrines of other religions, he did not allow them to impinge on the true faith. Though well versed in secular writings, his constant delight was in the Buddhist Law. Respected by everyone, he was looked on as foremost among those deserving of alms; embracing and upholding the correct Dharma, he gave guidance to old and young. In a spirit of trust and harmony he conducted all kinds of business enterprises, but though he reaped worldly profits, he took no delight in these.

He frequented the busy crossroads in order to bring benefit to others, entered the government offices and courts of law so as to aid and rescue all those he could. He visited the places of debate in order to guide others to the Great Vehicle, visited the schools and study halls to further the instruction of the pupils. He entered houses of ill fame to teach the folly of fleshly desire, entered wine shops in order to encourage those with a will to quit them.

If he was among rich men, they honored him as foremost among them because he preached the superior Law for them. If he was among lay believers, they honored him as foremost because he freed them from greed and attachment. Among Kshatriyas he was most highly honored because he taught them forbearance. Among Brahmans he was most highly honored because he rid them of their self-conceit. The great ministers honored him as foremost because he taught the correct Law. The princes honored him as foremost because he showed them how to be loyal and filial. Within the women's quarters he was most honored because he converted and brought refinement to the women of the harem.

The common people honored him as first among them because he helped them to gain wealth and power. The Brahma deities honored him as first among them because he revealed the superiority of wisdom. The Indras honored him as first among them because he demonstrated the truth of impermanence. The Four Heavenly Kings, guardians of the world, honored him as foremost because he guarded all living beings.

In this way the rich man Vimalakirti employed immeasurable numbers of expedient means in order to bring benefit to others.

By the way, Dogen's Eiheiji Monastery has been described by some as an attempt at a collective, a Kibbutz, an ideal community of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". Yes, although he had never heard the term, Dogen might be described as something of a Dharma-socialist. He too, like most idealists, found the realities perhaps more complicated than he planned ... but he never gave up the effort. (The same observation might be made of Gautama Buddha's vision of a communal, peaceful "Sangha").

Gassho, J

Thank you one and all for this interesting post and for everybody's comments on this subject. These ideas of money and possessions have been in the back of my mind for quite some time; especially since this past January after my mother had passed and even more so now that I will become a father in a few weeks.

I love my mom with all my heart but she was terrible with money. What made this matter worse was that she was often left in charge of the household finances. Both of my parents are/were disabled and we lived on a fixed income. Every fight I can remember my parents having involved money. Mom would secretly take out payday loans from multiple locations around town for extra cash. She was not the kind of person to ask for help or to say that she was in a bind and needed help. I don't know if it was pride or shame, but when she had passed the skeletons came out of the closet. My parent's house was nearly a year behind on its mortgage; the phone was shut off and the power was going to be turned off any day. Between the funeral costs and getting my dad on his feet, it took nearly everything that myself, my wife Nicole and my Uncle had to get things at least stable for the moment. Thankfully I can say that right now my dad is doing well and Nicole and I are doing okay.

Once concept I would like to express to my daughter is that money is neither the cause or solution to problems. Looking back I know now that my parent's fights were less about money and more about communication, honesty and balancing household duties. My dad never took the time to be involved with paying bills and the household finances and that was his fault. And mom was never able to ask for help when she needed it.

Probably like the majority of people here all I really want is enough to be comfortable; have a roof over my head, food on the table, bills paid and maybe a little left over for a r
rainy day.

I apologize if I went off on a separate tangent; just kind of let the spirit take me .

Thank you and Gassho,

Josh

Thank you Josh for sharing your story. I can relate in way as I grew up in a household of gamblers and alcoholics. They would work too much to get all the stuff, then drink too much to reduce the stress of working to much to get all the stuff, then gamble to get back the money they spent on the drinking and stuff. Was a crazy circle to grow up in.

The one thing I learned as I got older is money does not buy happiness, but it does help to create a sense of security (ie: a roof over your head). So, in order to create a sense of this security and be able to enjoy and live the life I would like, I adopted a minimalistic life, a life where I work to live, not live to work, a life where I didn't need a great deal of money to live or get by. In doing so I have a life where I have good friends and wonderful experiences.

Gassho
Michael

[galen]

Thank you one and all for this interesting post and for everybody's comments on this subject. These ideas of money and possessions have been in the back of my mind for quite some time; especially since this past January after my mother had passed and even more so now that I will become a father in a few weeks.

I love my mom with all my heart but she was terrible with money. What made this matter worse was that she was often left in charge of the household finances. Both of my parents are/were disabled and we lived on a fixed income. Every fight I can remember my parents having involved money. Mom would secretly take out payday loans from multiple locations around town for extra cash. She was not the kind of person to ask for help or to say that she was in a bind and needed help. I don't know if it was pride or shame, but when she had passed the skeletons came out of the closet. My parent's house was nearly a year behind on its mortgage; the phone was shut off and the power was going to be turned off any day. Between the funeral costs and getting my dad on his feet, it took nearly everything that myself, my wife Nicole and my Uncle had to get things at least stable for the moment. Thankfully I can say that right now my dad is doing well and Nicole and I are doing okay.

Once concept I would like to express to my daughter is that money is neither the cause or solution to problems. Looking back I know now that my parent's fights were less about money and more about communication, honesty and balancing household duties. My dad never took the time to be involved with paying bills and the household finances and that was his fault. And mom was never able to ask for help when she needed it.

Probably like the majority of people here all I really want is enough to be comfortable; have a roof over my head, food on the table, bills paid and maybe a little left over for a r
rainy day.

I apologize if I went off on a separate tangent; just kind of let the spirit take me .

Thank you and Gassho,

Josh

You did great here, Josh!

Thank you for sharing, and the best to you and your wife.

[jlewis]

Thank you one and all for this interesting post and for everybody's comments on this subject. These ideas of money and possessions have been in the back of my mind for quite some time; especially since this past January after my mother had passed and even more so now that I will become a father in a few weeks.

I love my mom with all my heart but she was terrible with money. What made this matter worse was that she was often left in charge of the household finances. Both of my parents are/were disabled and we lived on a fixed income. Every fight I can remember my parents having involved money. Mom would secretly take out payday loans from multiple locations around town for extra cash. She was not the kind of person to ask for help or to say that she was in a bind and needed help. I don't know if it was pride or shame, but when she had passed the skeletons came out of the closet. My parent's house was nearly a year behind on its mortgage; the phone was shut off and the power was going to be turned off any day. Between the funeral costs and getting my dad on his feet, it took nearly everything that myself, my wife Nicole and my Uncle had to get things at least stable for the moment. Thankfully I can say that right now my dad is doing well and Nicole and I are doing okay.

Once concept I would like to express to my daughter is that money is neither the cause or solution to problems. Looking back I know now that my parent's fights were less about money and more about communication, honesty and balancing household duties. My dad never took the time to be involved with paying bills and the household finances and that was his fault. And mom was never able to ask for help when she needed it.

Probably like the majority of people here all I really want is enough to be comfortable; have a roof over my head, food on the table, bills paid and maybe a little left over for a r
rainy day.

I apologize if I went off on a separate tangent; just kind of let the spirit take me .

Thank you and Gassho,

Josh

[YuimaSLC]

Jundo and/or Taigu,

What can you tell us about Vimalakirti, a contemporary of Shakamuni Buddha, who is oft presented as the great lay buddhist, with wealth and all.

I often think that a companion to the 'golden rule' is 'need what you take, take what you need' approach to materialism. And being willing to ask an honest question of
"do I really need that?" and an honest resolve to that ongoing question.

We often see overt reaction, in this country, to any talk of increased taxation to help others. And most people think that taking away a little more from one's own pockets is
an intolerable compromise. Yet, when we look at what people have, what they accumulate, what they are willing to pay for a pair of jeans, or how often they replace their computer
or cell phone with the latest-and-greatest version.....in fact, there seems to a significant amount of disposable income in this nation. Alot.

Gassho

Richard

I thank everybody for their sincere personal stories. As for the original question - why speculate? Why hold yourself up with something like this? There are so many choices right in front of us that HAVE to be made and will have an impact. That's what we learn as we study for Jukai.
Which job will you take? What will you spend money on? Is it wiser to buy another Dharma book or donate that amount? And so on. I think that's what everybody was pointing at, instead of "answering" the hypothetical question.

As for the original Faust tale, I think Gretchen should have stuck with her decision to go home alone!!

[galen]

Are we grasping for economic security, because the inner security that comes from knowing one's true nature is missing?

Are we grasping for material comforts, because we don't feel comfortable with ourselves and look for something outside ourselves to make us more comfortable?

I think so.

Having enough money to put food on the table every day takes away a lot of anxiety, but after the basic needs are covered, the endless chase after more and more may instead become a cause for stress and anxiety. More comforts don't improve our happiness in the long run, only briefly. We soon get used to them and find other imagined needs to fulfill. Economic security doesn't take away the inner sense of insecurity either, the Dukkha. Instead, money may lead to more anxiety. Suddenly you worry about stock market quotes instead of enjoying your economic security. Money can be used wisely, but can also make one's life more complicated in so many ways.

Gassho,
Pontus

Thank you, Pontus.

[Jundo]

Hi SD,

I think this is the portion of the book you mean. "What the Buddha Taught" presents an interpretation of "What the Buddha Taught" primarily from one Theravadan perspective, but is a very good book. (pp 83-84, my highlights):

A man named Dighajanu once visited the Buddha and said:
'Venerable Sir, we are ordinary lay men, leading the family life
with wife and children. Would the Blessed One teach us some
doctrines which will be conducive to our happiness in this world
and hereafter.'
The Buddha tells him that there are four things which are
conducive to a man's happiness in this world: First: he should
be skilled, efficient, earnest, and energetic in whatever profession
he is engaged, and he should know it well (uttbana-sampada);
second: he should protect his income, which he has thus earned
righteously, with the sweat of his brow (arakkba-sampadd); (This
refers to protecting wealth from thieves, etc. All these ideas should
be considered against the background of the period.) third: he
should have good friends (kalyana-mitta) who are faithful,
learned, virtuous, liberal and intelligent, who will help him along
the right path away from evil; fourth: he should spend reasonably,
in proportion to his income, neither too much nor too little,
i.e., he should not hoard wealth avariciously, nor should he be
extravagant—in other words he should live within his means
(samajivikata).
Then the Buddha expounds the four virtues conducive to a
layman's happiness hereafter: (i) Saddha: he should have faith
and confidence in moral, spiritual and intellectual values; (2)
S i / a : he should abstain from destroying and harming life, from
stealing and cheating, from adultery, from falsehood, and from
intoxicating drinks; (3) Caga: he should practise charity,
generosity, without attachment and craving for his wealth; (4)
Patina: he should develop wisdom which leads to the complete
destruction of suffering, to the realization of Nirvana.
Sometimes the Buddha even went into details about saving
money and spending it, as, for instance, when he told the young
man Sigala that he should spend one fourth of his income on his
daily expenses, invest half in his business and put aside one fourth
for any emergency.
Once the Buddha told Anathapindika, the great banker, one of
his most devoted lay disciples who founded for him the celebrated
Jetavana monastery at Savatthi, that a layman, who leads an
ordinary family life, has four kinds of happiness. The first
happiness is to enjoy economic security or sufficient wealth
acquired by just and righteous means (attki-sukha); the second is
spending that wealth liberally on himself, his family, his friends
and relatives, and on meritorious deeds (bhoga-sukha); the third to
be free from debts (anana-sukha); the fourth happiness is to live a
faultless, and a pure life without committing evil in thought, word
or deed (anavajja-sukha). It must be noted here that three of these
kinds are economic, and that the Buddha finally reminded the
banker that economic and material happiness is 'not worth one
sixteenth part' of the spiritual happiness arising out of a faultless
and good life.
From the few examples given above, one could see that the
Buddha considered economic welfare as requisite for human
happiness, but that he did not recognize progress as real and true
if it was only material, devoid of a spiritual and moral foundation.
While encouraging material progress, Buddhism always lays
great stress on the development of the moral and spiritual
character for a happy, peaceful and contented society.

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=_WduwVbiLSsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=what+the+buddha+taught&source=bl&ots=Vdz2mrdTia&sig=3YjvbHEIc-ggLVFMzCFBzrheoDI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3tJyUJjmKcmaiQe5moHwCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

I believe it was in a book I read years ago named "What the Buddha Taught" that there was actually some guidelines for lay practitioners by the Buddha on percentages of money/goods that should be used in certain ways and for certain expenses. It was kind of interesting.....Now I need to find the book!!!!

[Jundo]

Some of the best guidance on living moderately and non-attached ... whether with much money or little ... is from Buddha via Master Dogen in Shobogenzo Hachi-Dainingaku ... outlining important points of our Practice.

Dogen Zenji writes:


The first is having few desires. Not pursuing intensively the things we
have not yet gained among the objects of the five senses is called "having few desires"

The Buddha said,

Monks, you should know that people who have many
desires avariciously seek after fame and wealth; therefore
they experience great suffering and anguish. Those who have
few desires, because they have nothing to pursue and desire,
are free from such troubles. Having few desires is itself worth
learning and practicing. All the more so, as it gives birth
to various virtues. Those who have few deslres do not flatter´
to gain others' favor Also, they are not pulled by their
desire for gain. The mind of those who practice having few
desires is peaceful, without any worries or fears. They are
always affluent with whatever they have and never have a
sense of insufficiency. Those who have few desires experience
nirvana. This is called “few desires"

The second is to know satisfaction. Even among things
which have already been given, you set a limit for taking
them. This is called“knowing satisfaction.''

The Buddha said,

“Monks, if you want to be free from suffering and
anguish, you should contemplate knowing how much is
enough. The dharma of knowing satisfaction is the place of
richness, joy, peace, and calm. Those who know satisfaction,
even when they lie down on bare ground, still consider it
comfortable and joyful. Those who don't know satisfaction
are discontented even when they live in a heavenly palace.
Those who do not know satisfaction are poor even if they
have much wealth. Those who know satisfaction are rich
even if they are poor. Those who don't know satisfaction
are constantly pulled by the five sense desires and pitied
by those who know satisfaction. This is called `knowing
satlsfactlon”.

Yes, value frugality, simplicity, the intangible treasures in life. However, do so whether in the monastery or in your own living room!

Gassho
Michael

[Jundo]

By the way, a monastery promised a life of frugality, simplicity, lack of personal property ...

But I think it would be a mistake to think that the wandering monks of India 2500 years ago, or the monks of China, Tibet and Japan in centuries past, lived necessarily uncomfortable lives ... by the standards of the times anyway. Being a monk was not necessarily "giving it all away" to live in total hunger and poverty ... by the standards to the times anyway.

Think about it: In a world without cars, color television, ipods ... it was not like people "gave up all that" to enter the monastery, for nobody had them to start with!

A monastery promised room and board, good companionship, stable food, health care and dentistry (as it existed at the time, anyway), some social position, basic education, not to mention a stimulating intellectual and spiritual environment. Monks personally owned little perhaps ... but there were ways for monks to keep some personal property "off the books", and vast land holdings and other property was owned by the community, much like a Kibbutz or commune. Sure, there may have been folks like Gautama Buddha who walked away from the harem and palace to enter the monastery ... but for most folks, the alternative was working as a peasant or serf, hand to mouth in a trade, dying in bloody military service. A high percentage of the monks seem to have been the second or third sons of wealthy families who were "on their own" after the first son inherited dad's fiefdom. Even being a "rich person" in those days meant insecurity, and a life of struggle and "doing without the conveniences" by modern standards. The Chinese, Tibetan and Japanese government actually had to make rules for keeping people out of the monasteries ... cause so many wanted to get in and escape their life of toil and troubles.

In old India and South Asia, where folks were willing to fill a bowl whenever you knocked at their door, where the weather was temperate, one could simply sleep under a tree in the forest (except in the rainy season when monks would gather together under roofs). Yes, the monks would not eat a bite after noon ... but they got up with the cock crow, so that was already late in their day.

Sure, there were times at Eiheiji and other places where the donations were running low, when the pantry was empty and the monks went to bed hungry ... but that was usually at times when all the surrounding economy was in trouble, so the donations dried up. In other words, there may have been hunger in the monastery ... but you should have seen what was probably going on outside the monastery doors, with real hunger and plague among the general population!

Thus Buddha wrote many places in the Suttas ... "Household life is crowded and dusty; life gone forth is wide open."

A very interesting read is this critique of monk culture in South Asia by Ven. Shravasti Dhammika, a westerner who is himself now a Theravada monk. This is from his book ...

‘Boredom, no doubt, accounts for the inordinate amount
of sleeping one sees in monasteries - monks are forever taking naps - as well as for the dullness and
apathy frequently encountered in them. I suspect too, that those...who practice alchemy, medicine,
exorcism and...politics, do so not only for the intrinsic interest of the subject, but as an escape from
the tedium of monastic living. Similarly, boredom probably accounts for the great interest monks
show in visitors.’ Others take a different escape route. In a survey of monks in Thailand
anthropologist J. C. Ingersoll found that boredom was the main reason why young men left the
Sangha. When Somerset Maugham was traveling through Burma he had an interpreter who had
spent time in a monastery during his youth. Maugham asked him what he thought of the monk’s
life. ‘He shrugged his shoulders. “There was nothing to do”, he said. “Two hours work in the
morning and there were prayers at night, but all the rest of the day nothing. I was glad when the
time came for me to go home again.”’ And of those who stay behind their natural youthful
exuberance is gradually crushed under the weight of tradition and of having lay people doing
everything for them, and before long they begin doing what he sees the older monks doing - they
sleep.
You could hardly believe it possible for human beings to sleep so much until you’ve spent time in a
Theravada monastery. The most enduring images I have of my years in monasteries is of Burmese
monks dozing in chairs while their devotees massage their feet, of Thai monks lying flat on their
backs snoring at ten in the morning and of somnolent old nayaka hamdarus in Sri Lanka getting out
of bed for lunch and going straight back again after it is over. The English monk Phra Peter relates
an amusing incident he witnessed when a junior monk was paying respects to his senior with the
traditional three bows. The first bow went okay, the second was somewhat slower and during the
third bow the monk drifted off and remained fast asleep on the floor. This pervasive slothfulness is
a logical consequence of the Vinaya notion that monks must have everything done for them To
quote Spiro again. ‘Almost all his needs are satisfied by others, without his doing - or being
permitted to do - anything on his own behalf. As we have seen, he does no work; he does not earn
his own bread; even if he wants to, he cannot so much as pour his tea or lift his serving bowl, let
alone tend his garden or repair his monastery. Everything he needs must be given to him by others;
everything that he desires must be provided him by others. Moreover, others not only must provide
for the monk, but in fact they do provide for him, and - as we have seen - with lavish hand’ (italics
in the original).
The almost complete absence of physical exercise coupled with the rich diet is probably the reason
for the abnormally high incidence of diabetes amongst older Sri Lankan monks. A study released in
2002 showed that the leading cause of death amongst Thai monks was smoking related illnesses.
Having little else to do they while away their time sleeping, chatting and puffing on Klongtips [cigarettes].

http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berlin.de/downloads/brokenbuddhanew.pdf

His blog:

http://sdhammika.blogspot.jp/

Because of changes in the economic system for monasteries in China, Korea and Japan, the Northern Asian monasteries emphasized work and physical labor more then the South Asian traditions. If the monks did not grow some vegetables, they did not eat. The saying was "A day without work, is a day with eating". At a few wonderful monasteries in Japan today, such as Antaiji, the practitioners are expected to spend as much time in mud picking vegetables as on the Zafu. However, even then, most of the economic support for the monks in most Chinese, Korean and Japanese monasteries seems to have come from donations or from the labor of poor serfs who worked on temple owned lands ... not from the monks themselves.

http://eh.net/content/sacred-economies-buddhist-monasticism-and-territoriality-medieval-china-0

Yes, value frugality, simplicity, the intangible treasures in life. However, do so whether in the monastery or in your own living room!

Gassho, J