On rituals

[Taigu]

Hi Bob,

Seems you sound like a veteran here.
Ditch the Heart sutra, will you?
Ditch the biography and the chronology,
Meanwhile
ditch yourself, your ideas and views,
and ditch the ditching

Otherwise you are just an old fool on the hill
playing a flute with too many holes
and gazing at a too eloquent moon!

Welcome anyway good old bloke
unless you really want to be baby-like


gassho

Taigu

[BobSpour]

hey Taigu

My biography starts today...and everyday!
Picking up the Heart Sutra as new every day...
They called me Han Shan in the Shipyards...every day

Thanks and No-Thanks Taigu
Love your videos...very inspirational/perspirational

Deep gassho
bob

P.S. you cannot get it by taking thought
you cannot seek it by not taking thought

[Taigu]

so we are both babies then!

take care


gassho


Taigu

[Kyonin]

Smoking or just running, they are habits.

Doing a routine to get your mind ready for the day or task, that's ritual.

IMHO, a habit is not a ritual.

[Jundo]

At the end of the day, Zen is a relgious practise based on the MYSTERY of what this is. If we feel the need to really cut everything into pieces that are easy to digest and are pleasing to our early 21st century secular minds, we are sacrificing more to our own preferences than we should. THIS is bigger than us. As long as we don't rely on anything outside of what is, I do not see any problem. Taking itno account that the everyday Zen reality in Japan is far more based on ritual than on Zazen, it is hard for me to understand that even the DIET-liturgy of western Zen is causing so many people head- and heartaches.
At some point one has to ask oneself why one wants to engage in religious practise at all, when so many traditional elements have to be left behind before one can finally commit to a certain practise.

We live amid the mystery of life ... yet that is not an excuse to dabble in ignorance. Yes, religious traditions have thrilled the masses with superstition, magic tricks, miracle stories, holy lies ... but there are more subtle thrills and a bright illumination to be found in clearing away the smoke and mirrors and just seeing the miracle of this universe, free of all the childish tales and cargo cults. The mystery remains, and is better seen head on, when freed of made up "ugga bugga". One may be moved by the Dharani chant, others by speaking in tongues, soothsaying, snake handling, spirit channeling. It is all the same.

It may be that some have their hearts captured by the mystical magic ... but some of us, in our hearts, wish to stop. I wish to stop, and to offer the glory of these Buddhist Teachings free of the carnival side show the pleased the audience for centuries. Perhaps ...


THIS is bigger than us.


... but it is us too, and like the fable writers of ages past who created these religions out of whole cloth, we can offer new creeds that will free these beautiful teachings of the fictions, fables, fallacies and fraud. What results will not appeal to everyone ... perhaps only to some ... because people need their religious pacifiers, saintly heros and prophets and pie in the sky. However, it will appeal to those receptive to the message ... and give rise to a deep passion among its adherents who would literally cross deserts and whole planets (was that not some Mars landing today! ) to spread the word. I want to help make such a Buddhism washed clean of Holy Hogwash.

I think it may be time to strip my Practice of the sacred bullshit ... the statues, the robes, the incense, the made up histories. What remains then? Something that does not require any of that. Of course, if someone can find something that speaks to them in any of that KEEP 'EM! Good for them! Same for the snake handling or spirit possession. Why not, and to each their own medicine!

Is Zen Buddhism (what else to call it?) a religion, a philosophy? Nishijima Roshi had a good perspective, and a definition which blurs the lines: A "religion" or "philosophy" is a "way of thinking or ideology believed true concerning the meaning and workings of the world and mankind’s place in it, and a way of living that seeks to be in harmony with that way." That's a good enough definition for me.

If someone wants to chant a Dharani because it makes their heart feel good ... then more power to them! Same for dancing to appease the mountain god, waiting for the UFO aliens who built the pyramids, sacrificing a goat. Whatever trips someone's religion trigger, more power to them. Count me out.

Gassho, Jundo

[Dosho]

Maybe because I really don't see Zen as a religious practice?

Why is "the mystery of what is" a religious practice? It is a philosophical practice, and much of Zen is a psychological practice, but what makes it religious? Isn't it the rituals that make it such? My Mac's dictionary points out that religion is "a particular system of faith and worship." While there is faith in Zen - the faith that zazen serves a purpose - the Zen we practice here doesn't really have worship.

See, this is the root of my discomfort with these rituals. I don't see Zen as a religion, and the rituals that can tilt it in that direction bother that part of me that feels this way.

Kirk,

You seem to know what zen is and what it isn't...I sometimes think I have an idea, but there is so much to learn and unlearn. That's why I practice and until you let go of this resistance I don't think you will ever truly embrace it. I humbly suggest that, for at least a year, jump in (sorrry if this metaphor is becoming tired) with your whole heart and embrace that which you resist. At the end of that year if you still have all these certainties and opinions filling your head, then I guess it isn't for you. Stop thinking about walking the path and start walking the path. Only this...THAT'S it.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Ryumon]

I did exactly what you're suggesting more than 20 years ago. For a couple of years, I fully embraced the Tibetan tradition. And I realized then that all the rituals in that tradition were not for me, it was a tradition with far too many layers of rituals.

What Brought me to Zen is that there is much more simplicity. I may be wrong in the attitude I expressed in this thread, but I am not new to this.

[Dosho]

Kirk,

That was then, this is now...if you aren't willing to give it a go, what else can be said?

Gassho,
Dosho

P.S. And yes, you are new to this...we all are...every day. Once we think we've "been there, done that" we're going to be stuck there.

[Jundo]

I feel that some of us have to give Kirk's Way of Practice a try too.

Put down the religious trappings and fairy tales, and Just Sit.

Gassho, J

[Dosho]

Agreed, but shouldn't we do what we resist in this practice? Just as someone who takes the religious and "fairy tale" aspects too seriously, should we not encourage someone who is resistant to them to embrace those very things that make them uncomfortable?

That said, I will say nothing else on the matter and hope Kirk finds the path that works for him. You are quite right to point out that we should accept his way too

Gassho,
Dosho

I feel that some of us have to give Kirk's Way of Practice a try too.

Put down the religious trappings and fairy tales, and Just Sit.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Agreed, but shouldn't we do what we resist in this practice? Just as someone who takes the religious and "fairy tale" aspects too seriously, should we not encourage someone who is resistant to them to embrace those very things that make them uncomfortable?

That said, I will say nothing else on the matter and hope Kirk finds the path that works for him. You are quite right to point out that we should accept his way too

Gassho,
Dosho

Hi Dosho,

I think that many good ways are possible, and we should all keep an open mind to the strengths and beauty of other ways. Many ways up the mountainless mountain (many bad ways too, some that lead off the cliff). We should sit in ways we resist sometimes, but also sit in our own way too if that feels right and balanced from knowing oneself.

I light the incense, candles, put on the robes, bow toward the altar, and sit the old fashioned way once or twice a week. I do this out of respect for our Traditions, and because there is much richness to be found there (as described throughout this thread). Most of the time, I sit as Kirk describes ... without the religious trappings and robes (apart from a Rakusu), without the myth & legend, and Just Sit. I could take or leave many of the Traditions.

Gassho, J

[Ryumon]

Doing a routine to get your mind ready for the day or task, that's ritual.

I have to disagree here, and quite strongly. You are suggesting that anything you do on a regular basis is a ritual. I don't see it that way. I think a ritual is something that has symbolism. If you drink a cup of coffee to drink a cup of coffee — what to wake up — that's drinking a cup of coffee. If, however, you drink a cup of coffee thinking that it is the blood of the Buddha, that would be a ritual.

[Risho]

We live amid the mystery of life ... yet that is not an excuse to dabble in ignorance. Yes, religious traditions have thrilled the masses with superstition, magic tricks, miracle stories, holy lies ... but there are more subtle thrills and a bright illumination to be found in clearing away the smoke and mirrors and seeing the miracle of this universe free of all the childish tales and cargo cultiness. The mystery remains, and is better seen head on, when freed of made up "ugga bugga". One may may be moved by the Dharani chant, others by speaking in tongues, soothsaying, snake handling, spirit channeling. It is all the same.

It may be that some have their hearts captured by the mystical magic ... but some of us, in our hearts, wish to stop. I wish to stop, and to offer the glory of these Buddhist Teachings free of the carnival magic shows the pleased the audience for centuries. Perhaps ...


THIS is bigger than us.


... but it is us too, and like the fable writers of ages past who created these religions out of whole cloth, we can offer new creeds that will free these beautiful teachings of the fictions, fables, fallacies and fraud. What results will not appeal to everyone ... perhaps only to some ... because people need their religious pacifiers, religious heros and prophets and pie in the sky. However, it will appeal to those receptive to the message ... and give rise to a deep passion among its adherents who would literally cross deserts and whole planets (was that not some Mars landing today! ) to spread the word. I want to help make such a Buddhism washed clean of Holy Hogwash.

I think it may be time to strip my Practice of the sacred bullshit ... the statues, the robes, the incense, the made up histories. What remains then? Something that does not require any of that. Of course, if someone can find something that speaks to them in any of that KEEP 'EM! Good for them! Same for the snake handling or spirit possession. Why not, and to each their own medicine!

Is Zen Buddhism (what else to call it?) a religion, a philosophy? Nishijima Roshi had a good perspective, and a definition which blurs the lines: A "religion" or "philosophy" is a "way of thinking or ideology believed true concerning the meaning and workings of the world and mankind’s place in it, and a way of living that seeks to be in harmony with that way." That's a good enough definition for me.

If someone wants to chant a Dharani because it makes their heart feel good ... then more power to them! Same for dancing to appease the mountain god, waiting for the UFO aliens who built the pyramids, sacrificing a goat. Whatever trips someone's religion trigger, more power to them. Count me out.

Gassho, Jundo

Posting on this topic seems to be my new "ritual". mwahahahah

Yes... Jundo this is how I feel! I also agree with Taigu. Of course, in my less experienced way I was throwing the baby out with the bathwater, which is exactly why I'm not a Zen teacher thank goodness. I just read the history of Dogen's life at the end of Realizing Genjokoan, and it seems like he had the same opinion of Zen in his day. I don't have the book with me right now, so I can't find the passage... grrr But Dogen, too, was not about the BS (note: I'm talking about superstitions like chanting specific names to invoke insight, etc, not the Rakusu which I do not think is bs at all).

I think honoring the traditions is one thing, but when we give them more weight than what they are then I think it moves out of what Buddhism is. As human beings, we do have a tendency to add onto things. It's sort of what we do. But to me, this practice is about stripping away things; I guess it's also a very rich practice of discovering new things that were there all along. However, I completely agree with Taigu and you that we must be careful on what to strip away. After all, I'm just a beginner, and I look to you both for guidance in this practice. Otherwise, as Kyrillos noted, why in the hell are we practicing at Treeleaf? At my point in practice, it's easy to say "oh I don't like that. I won't do it". Just a couple days ago I noted how it didn't mean anything to me to chant the Heart Sutra in Japanese; I don't speak Japanese. However your (Jundo's) point about just throwing ourselves into it (regardless of the language) is a very valid one. And again, it's nice to honor the roots of this practice.

Going back to the Rakusu, although I don't attribute magic to my Rakusu, I think that the sewing is an important practice. And Taigu's instructions on it just pierce through to the heart and show why it is important to our way. Again, I don't have my journal with me, so I can't find the quote from Taigu, but when we sew the Rakusu, we give ourselves to it entirely dropping all thoughts of gain or loss, am I doing it right or not?, oh I'm so proud of myself, etc. It's like a working Shikantaza. This is important, and I think it really separates any of us who may not be ready to take the precepts. It takes effort, time and patience. We must lose ourselves in it. It is, in effect, a barrier to entry to our sangha here. At the same time, the Rakusu doesn't grant special powers, and it's really not even my Rakusu. So the practice of the Rakusu I feel is a really good one. But again, that is my personal opinion, and others may not take to it. Also, I know I'm contradicting myself; earlier I said I wasn't too crazy about the Rakusu, but I should really qualify what I meant. I said that from a different point of view. What I meant to say was that I wear it during weekly Zazenkai, but I don't attribute any specialness to it. From one point it is special because it's my Treeleaf "swag", and it shows my bond to this lineage. It's very special in that regard, and I take care of it, put it in a high place, etc. But from another perspective, it is not special. It is very ordinary, and it is not an item of superstition.

I don't feel Zen is a religion per se. It is a philosophy of action and doing. It is a philosophy of experience and getting rid of that which is not real. Greed, Anger, Ignorance... illusory, bullshit, they should be dropped. On the other hand, it could be argued both ways that this is a religion. I could see that as well.

The Buddha said to test things out for ourself and if they are true, adopt them. If not, don't. This means we can't just ditch things until we've tried them for ourselves. I think this is a great topic because it forces us to understand where our practice is. What is our practice? Why our we practicing? Why am I practicing? This question of rituals seems like it's the same question that Dogen had about why practice is necessary if we already have Buddha nature, or the classic question about why Bodhidharma came from the West? What do the 4 noble truths mean to us? How does Shikantaza play a role in our practice? How do the precepts support our practice? Do they? Do they support your practice? I mean the questions are endless; it sort of makes practice fun, and each of us needs to answer these questions for ourselves. Although, this is practice is not for me, it's my personal practice, and no one else can do it for me.

What is essential to practice? I feel the most important thing, despite which rituals we do or do not, is that we do not lose sight of the importance of practice. Earlier I mentioned that although some rituals seem "weird", I do change The Bodhisattva vows and The Verse of Atonement after sitting. That might not resonate with some, but it does with me. So I like to investigate why is that meaningful for me? Sometimes I stop sitting because things happen. Sometimes I use sitting as a means to an end, to feel better. But that is my ego trying to use practice. That is me forgetting the Bodhisattva vows and the precepts that I've taken. So that is why I say the verse of atonement. That is personally why the verse of atonement is important to me, and why I will continue saying it. It's me taking responsibility for my selfishness, for losing sight of saving all sentient beings, and letting greed, anger and ignorance take over.

The work is never done. Our reasons for practice must be constantly questioned and we must constantly practice.

This is such a rich topic. I can just keep posting and posting on this. I have a feeling my thoughts of practice will change as my practice matures.

I genuinely thank all of you for your posts. My gratitude for our practice here has deepened just as a result of thinking about the rituals here and why I do them.

Gassho,

Risho

[Kyonin]

Thank you for this, Dosho.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Kirk,

You seem to know what zen is and what it isn't...I sometimes think I have an idea, but there is so much to learn and unlearn. That's why I practice and until you let go of this resistance I don't think you will ever truly embrace it. I humbly suggest that, for at least a year, jump in (sorrry if this metaphor is becoming tired) with your whole heart and embrace that which you resist. At the end of that year if you still have all these certainties and opinions filling your head, then I guess it isn't for you. Stop thinking about walking the path and start walking the path. Only this...THAT'S it.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Nengyo]

I am the kind of guy that always goes about questioning everything. I question folklore, traditions and family ways more than I should. But his gives me the chance to challenge things and understand them. I tend to never do things without seeing the point to them.

Last Ango was a life changing experience for me because I finally came to accept rituals as part of my life.

This reaffirms my desire to participate.

The ritual I found I was more resilient to perform was the meal gatha. I simply couldn't do it without picturing me like a Christian praying to food. It was very hard for me to do it and I even felt ashamed saying it in front of my girlfriend (we live together).

This is where I'm at now. I still feel weird/awkward when saying a meal gatha. The rest of the rituals are mine, done in private, but the meal gatha is for all to see. This weekend the wife and I went to a restaurant and when I put my hands together to start my gatha she giggled and said that I looked like the Christians I made fun of so much in the past (I was a very outspoken atheist). What goes around comes around I guess...

Also, because I didn't pray before eating for most of my life, I also frequently forget to say the meal gatha until I'm almost done. Hopefully my brain will figure it out soon.

<edited for clarity>