On rituals

[Hans]

Hello,

mumbo-jumbo or not, Elements like Dharani are always an important liturgical reminder that we shaven monkeys don't have it all worked out. At the end of the day, Zen is a relgious practise based on the MYSTERY of what this is. If we feel the need to really cut everything into pieces that are easy to digest and are pleasing to our early 21st century secular minds, we are sacrificing more to our own preferences than we should. THIS is bigger than us. As long as we don't rely on anything outside of what is, I do not see any problem. Taking itno account that the everyday Zen reality in Japan is far more based on ritual than on Zazen, it is hard for me to understand that even the DIET-liturgy of western Zen is causing so many people head- and heartaches.
At some point one has to ask oneself why one wants to engage in religious practise at all, when so many traditional elements have to be left behind before one can finally commit to a certain practise.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Ryumon]

Hello,

mumbo-jumbo or not, Elements like Dharani are always an important liturgical reminder that we shaven monkeys don't have it all worked out. At the end of the day, Zen is a relgious practise based on the MYSTERY of what this is. If we feel the need to really cut everything into pieces that are easy to digest and are pleasing to our early 21st century secular minds, we are sacrificing more to our own preferences than we should. THIS is bigger than us. As long as we don't rely on anything outside of what is, I do not see any problem. Taking itno account that the everyday Zen reality in Japan is far more based on ritual than on Zazen, it is hard for me to understand that even the DIET-liturgy of western Zen is causing so many people head- and heartaches.
At some point one has to ask oneself why one wants to engage in religious practise at all, when so many traditional elements have to be left behind before one can finally commit to a certain practise.

Maybe because I really don't see Zen as a religious practice?

Why is "the mystery of what is" a religious practice? It is a philosophical practice, and much of Zen is a psychological practice, but what makes it religious? Isn't it the rituals that make it such? My Mac's dictionary points out that religion is "a particular system of faith and worship." While there is faith in Zen - the faith that zazen serves a purpose - the Zen we practice here doesn't really have worship.

See, this is the root of my discomfort with these rituals. I don't see Zen as a religion, and the rituals that can tilt it in that direction bother that part of me that feels this way.

[Hans]

Hello Kirk,

I can completely understand what you mean...my gut feeling however is that (EDIT) whatever this practise is in its many forms only managed to survive historically because of a deep and powerful force and passion that arose within quite a number of its adherents who would literally cross deserts and seas to find sutras and spread the teachings...their appreciation went deeper than any kind of philosophical practise and appreciation that I have come across (and that may indeed be a limitation on my part).

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jinyo]

Hello Kirk,

I can completely understand what you mean...my gut feeling however is that Zen Buddhism in its many forms only managed to survive historically because of a deep and powerful force and passion that arose within quite a number of its adherents who would literally cross deserts and seas to find sutras and spread the teachings...their appreciation went deeper than any kind of philosophical practise and appreciation that I have come across (and that may indeed be a limitation on my part).

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Hans - I am finding this really interesting/enlightening.

The more I communicate with Zen the more I feel it is a religion - or certainly as elements of being such.

I hadn't come across Dharani - but in what can be a cold and crazy world perhaps we all need the odd magic
spell at times.

I don't think it matters what the ritual is if it rings with the heart - it doesn't matter what words we mouth if the sound connects with the universe in a positive manner.

This matter of religious belief/spiritual belief - versus philosophy/psychology - I don't think we can take a mental axe to it and chop it down the middle (creating yet another dualism).
Even if we just sit - forgoing all else - we are rooted in what has gone before - what we have taken in and accepted/understood - what we have rejected - what we feel we no longer need.

Gassho

Willow

[BobSpour]

Great thread but I just go back to the heart sutra!
Form is emptiness
Emptiness is form
its where I also look to find answers/questions

_/\_ gassho
bob

[Taigu]

Cannot agree more Hans, but please, don t call this Zen Buddhism, because it is not. Call it Zen or call it Buddhism.

Thank you

Gassho


Taigu

[Hans]

Hello Taigu,

you are perfectly right....these days with everyone calling everything by any name I get confused myself. I am sick and tired of -isms and need none in my selfish practise. Sitting in God (now there's a controversial term) is good enough.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Taigu]

Unlike My bro Jundo I like Dharani, homeopathy and think that magical thinking and dreams have a big role in our life, but again that's just my f...... old me.
The fact is we both agree on the very essence of just sitting.

So I don t mind and don t care.

Gassho


Taigu

[Taigu]

Sitting in God sounds good to me!

Gassho

T.

[Kyonin]

I am the kind of guy that always goes about questioning everything. I question folklore, traditions and family ways more than I should. But his gives me the chance to challenge things and understand them. I tend to never do things without seeing the point to them.

Last Ango was a life changing experience for me because I finally came to accept rituals as part of my life.

The ritual I found I was more resilient to perform was the meal gatha. I simply couldn't do it without picturing me like a Christian praying to food. It was very hard for me to do it and I even felt ashamed saying it in front of my girlfriend (we live together).

But for the first time, I set my questioning side apart and just did it. In a few days my mind changed and started to really understand the gatha. I wasn't praying. I was feeling grateful and acknowledging all the hard work and labor from all the people and creatures that helped to bring food to my table. I was opening my mind to understand the needs of other people that are not as fortunate as me for having something to eat, not only here but in all the planets of the universe!

In my opinion, rituals are very useful when not doing them as esoteric activities. Rituals are extremely helpful to set your mind ready for understanding things, to keep traditions and to simply make you understand you need to be humble.

Besides all that, you don't need a fancy robe to perform a ritual. We actually perform rituals every day of our lives even if you don't realize it.

Here's my morning ritual: I wake up, make coffee, do a little yoga, read or write, sit zazen for 35 minutes, go out for a run, get back home, cook and eat breakfast, get ready for work.

I have been doing this for a couple of years now.

In work I have other routines and rituals as well.

So if we perform rituals everyday and every moment of our lives, why be so resilient towards Zen rituals?

Just a thought.

Gassho, Kyonin

[andyZ]

Thank you Kyonin, exactly my thoughts (but not exactly the same ritual :

Here's my morning ritual: I wake up, make coffee, do a little yoga, read or write, sit zazen for 35 minutes, go out for a run, get back home, cook and eat breakfast, get ready for work.

[Ryumon]

IMHO, a habit is not a ritual.

[andyZ]

IMHO, a habit is not a ritual.

I think it's a fine line between the two, for example:
By doing yoga in the morning I prepare myself for the day ahead - it gives me strength to meet the day head on. By the time I'm done with yoga and my breakfast I'm already in the mood to face whatever is ahead of me today.
By reciting heart sutra before zazen it sets me in the mood for zazen. As soon as I recite the first lines of it - I'm already in zazen.

[BobSpour]

I agree. The Heart Sutra said a lot to me the first time I read it back in 1972
i was working in the shipyards on the Tyne at the time
it was life changing!
Deep Gassho
_/\_
bob

[Rich]

Hans - I am finding this really interesting/enlightening.

The more I communicate with Zen the more I feel it is a religion - or certainly as elements of being such.

I hadn't come across Dharani - but in what can be a cold and crazy world perhaps we all need the odd magic
spell at times.

I don't think it matters what the ritual is if it rings with the heart - it doesn't matter what words we mouth if the sound connects with the universe in a positive manner.

This matter of religious belief/spiritual belief - versus philosophy/psychology - I don't think we can take a mental axe to it and chop it down the middle (creating yet another dualism).
Even if we just sit - forgoing all else - we are rooted in what has gone before - what we have taken in and accepted/understood - what we have rejected - what we feel we no longer need.

Gassho

Willow

The Great Dharani is just sounds, an expression of our being. most enjoyable. Takes away all thinking. Willow expresses my feelings best on this because I don't know what zen practice is in terms of religion/psychology and I don't care about that.