Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

[Jinyo]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

I see dreaming and fantasy as essential to creativity and living a full and imaginative life.

Children seem to have a natural balance concerning this - passing freely from joyfull play to the more mundane, essential and necessary aspects of being in the world.

Very sad that our capacity for dreaming often gets crushed in adult life - I like to think that zazen frees up the mind to be more playful in each present moment of everyday existance

Willow

[Heisoku]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Very sad that our capacity for dreaming often gets crushed in adult life - I like to think that zazen frees up the mind to be more playful in each present moment of everyday existance

I agree Willow that zazen helps free up the mind from whatever constraints you may find it comes up against, but it also helps free the mind into this big thing / no thing that we hear so much of here at Treeleaf! This big dream or as Dogen called it a dream within a dream.

Tibetan lojong or Mind Training in seven points includes as part of its practice in one focus: 'In daily life, be a child of illusion'.
See http://www.unfetteredmind.org/mindtraining/6.php.
However all this as Jundo said depends on how attached we become to dreaming, freedom, being a child of illusion!

One thing that I remember from my travelling days is walking home to Bondi Junction one evening and realising that I was actually living what I had always dreamed of doing and it was ....well just a contentment...I still had to pay rent, wake up early to go to work, eat! The basics don't change.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

There's a time for dreaming and a time for doing. When doing just do it. I think I learned that after my second car accident :lol:

Hardcore wisdom! :lol:
Thanks.

/Pontus

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

I see dreaming and fantasy as essential to creativity and living a full and imaginative life.

Children seem to have a natural balance concerning this - passing freely from joyfull play to the more mundane, essential and necessary aspects of being in the world.

Very sad that our capacity for dreaming often gets crushed in adult life - I like to think that zazen frees up the mind to be more playful in each present moment of everyday existance

Willow

Thanks Willow,
Pontus

[Kyonin]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Fantasy and daydreaming are basic needs for humans. We need them in order to improve our lives and to invent, to create new ways to solve problems and have better lives.

Like all the wise folks here say, I think there's nothing wrong with fantasizing as long as you don't get lost in it and don't get confused on what's reality and what isn't.

I used to be a huge daydreamer. Sometimes when walking down the street, my mind would play this fantasy about the future or about stuff like having super powers. Gladly I was never lost on them, but I've met some people in the past that they lost everything for a fantasy.

Now I daydream sometimes and I do plan, but like it's already said, it's not the end of the world if the plan doesn't come to fruition.

Thanks for this thread, Ekai.

[Ekai]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Imagination and creativity are beautiful things to experience and enjoy. My career as a graphic designer depends on my ability to be creative and innovative at a moments notice. Like Pontus stated earlier, that it's the clinging to the dreams or desired results that causes suffering. Creating a healthy, balanced relationship between our dreams and reality keeps the mind open and spacious to accept things as they are and be flexible for change.

Creating goals and visualizing them as already achieved is very helpful in manifesting daydreams of the future into reality. This is similar to what athletes do in order to perform at their maximum level in competition. I have done this a few times for my martial arts training. However, my Judo throw still are not as good as what I visualize them to be. ops:

Thanks for all your posts and teachings.
Ekai

[Jiki22]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

it is said that life itself is a pure fantasy.

[Rich]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Creating a healthy, balanced relationship between our dreams and reality keeps the mind open and spacious to accept things as they are and be flexible for change.


Ekai

Very well said. Thx.

Becoming comfortable with this open, spacious perception takes practice. 10000 things can drag one into stress and anxiety.

it is said that life itself is a pure fantasy.

Is that why they say it is a dream within a dream? Whatever it is, it doesn't seem that dreamy when I'm doing all this stuff everyday.

[Jiken]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Jundo wrote,

"Rather, I counsel folks that this Practice is about being "at one with this moment's way, however this moment is" ... which is not quite the same. If healthy in this moment ... be healthy. If sick and miserable in this moment ... be sick and miserable. In fact, if afraid for the future in this moment ... just be afraid. If sad about one's condition, just be sad. If regretting some bad conduct of the past ... just regret it and wish it would be some other way. If dreaming now about the future ... just dream away!"

Shunryu Suzuki said, "When you do something, you should do it with your whole body and mind; you should be concentrated on what you do. You should do it completely, like a good bonfire. You should not be a smoky fire. You should burn yourself completely."

Jundo is this the same understanding?

Daido

[Jundo]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Shunryu Suzuki said, "When you do something, you should do it with your whole body and mind; you should be concentrated on what you do. You should do it completely, like a good bonfire. You should not be a smoky fire. You should burn yourself completely."

Jundo is this the same understanding?

Daido

Hi Daido,

Here is my feeling about when Zen Masters say such things, or college football coaches say things like "give it your all, or die trying"! They mean that there are times to do such, and times not to do such.

I very much doubt (in fact, I pretty much know for a fact based on writings about him) that Suzuki (same for Dogen in fact, who often wrote like statements) was so "intense" and whole hearted about every single action of every single instant of every day.

When sitting Zazen, eating Oryoki, working in the garden ... or perhaps washing the dishes, changing the baby diapers, making love ... do it with all one's all.

At other times, kick back ... watch TV or the grass grow, eat popcorn, daydream, pick lint out of your navel. Relax.

I know enough about Suzuki from his biographers to know that he was a master of all that.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Let me mention too that, in our way of doing by letting go, we can often best "burn up the self completely" by just allowing. That is "that self burned from the start" too.

But each of these ways of seeing or being are all just "tools (or non-tools) on the toolbelt" of Zen Practice. I sometimes quote this (quoting myself quoting myself ... )

I sometimes describe the many perspectives and states of mind that we can master through Zen Practice as "tools (or non-tools) on the toolbelt". We may take them and be them at the appropriate moments, then replace them on the belt.

So, sometimes we can be fully in the moment, no thought of past or future, no thought of other places to be or where we would better be. Such moments might include watching a sunrise, playing with our children, enjoying and experiencing just this one place and time of life. It may be pouring oneself into Zazen, Oryoki, Samu, Calligraphy, Archery, the Tea Ceremony.

Other times, we might need to think of the project we have to do tomorrow, the place we have to go next, the many things we have to do on the "to do" list.

Or, other times, we might think of something that happened this morning or many years ago, good or bad. It might be the sunrise we saw yesterday, or the fight with the wife 5 minutes ago, or what the boss said last year.

Without the future or past, we could not live as human beings. I am reminded of the story of the man with the brain injury who had no past, no future ... and thus could not function in the simplest tasks.

I believe, though, that even when we are in those "present moments" when we are thinking of the "must do's" and "what if's" of the future ... hold them lightly, be willing to let be what will be (even as you work you plans to turn the future your way). Even when in those "present moments" when we are thinking of the past ... hold memories lightly, be willing to let what was, just be what was (even as we learn from the past).

So, yes, when driving the car ... probably a good idea not to be so caught up in the fight with the wife that morning that you fail to notice the semi-truck in front of you! :shock:

I think that there are times to be mindful in our practice in that way, and great lessons are to be learned there ... drinking a cup of tea as the only and perfect act in the whole universe of that moment, the same for "Oryoki" meals during a Sesshin, "just being" in the moment, when washing the floor "just washing the floor".

But the one point I really really really wish to emphasize to folks is not to be too idealistic about what "mindfulness" is, or set it up as some unrealistic goal. I described it recently when I said this ...

[Folks encounter lots of Zen teachings like the one mentioned by Master Seung Sahn, "when you eat, just eat. When you sleep just sleep..."] But I think that Master Seung Sahn's phrasing, like many Zen books and expressions, can sound rather idealistic if it implies that we must be "mindful" or in "Zen Mind" 24/7. My view is more balanced I think, namely, "when mindful of one thing, just be mindful of one thing ... when distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, just be distracted, overwrought and multi-task". There is a time for everything, and we cannot be "mindful" each minute. All of it is life.

However, one of the great fruits of our Zen Practice is that, even when we are distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, feeling completely miserable and off balance ... and even when "Zen Mind" feels very far away ... we can still know it is 'there' even if we do not feel it at that moment, the blue sky always behind the clouds. So I say, when feeling completely "miserable and off balance", just be "miserable and off balance" in that moment ... it too is a temporary state of mind.

So, in other words, have a balanced and realistic view of life ... even a balanced view of sometimes or frequently being unbalanced, overworked, distracted and such.

...

It seems to me that many people in Zen Practice have come to confuse "being present/mindful in the moment" (for example, "when drinking tea, just drink tea" ... a sometimes appropriate and lovely way to experience life) ... with "being at one with the moment" (allowing and merging with conditions of life "just as they are"). The two are not quite the same, and are often confused, and the latter is much more at the heart of this Shikantaza Path ...

Gassho, Jundo

[Rich]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

So is the one pure and clear thing my fantasy or my true self? don't know

[Jiken]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

There's never been anything I fantasied about that once I got it or a reasonable facsimile thereof did it make me one iota happier, in fact, as I remember, it was always disappointing. Maybe fantasies about unobtainable scenarios play out different but obtainable ones, not so much. Or is it just me?

This is not the case for me. I fantasized about having a family when I was younger and although not exactly what I thought it was going to be it was one of the best things I have ever done including the disappointing moments. At times beyond any happy I had conceived. Without this experience I wouldn't know I could experience this level of love to share. I hope that all can find something similar.

Daido

[jefftos]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

There's never been anything I fantasied about that once I got it or a reasonable facsimile thereof did it make me one iota happier, in fact, as I remember, it was always disappointing. Maybe fantasies about unobtainable scenarios play out different but obtainable ones, not so much. Or is it just me?

This is not the case for me. I fantasized about having a family when I was younger and although not exactly what I thought it was going to be it was one of the best things I have ever done including the disappointing moments. At times beyond any happy I had conceived. Without this experience I wouldn't know I could experience this level of love to share. I hope that all can find something similar.

Daido

Hi Daido, When I was in the army as a single man stationed in South Korea I used to daydream while on guard duty about settling down once I got out, having a family and just enjoying it, nothing too specific, just the general idea, I didn't even have the slightest clue of who I would be settling down with. When I finally did get discharged, I eventually fulfilled that dream and my feelings are similar to yours, even with the ups and downs and what have you, I don't regret sitting in that guard shack daydreaming about a simpler life, even as I tended to my duties as an entrance guard.

[Ekai]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

There's never been anything I fantasied about that once I got it or a reasonable facsimile thereof did it make me one iota happier, in fact, as I remember, it was always disappointing. Maybe fantasies about unobtainable scenarios play out different but obtainable ones, not so much. Or is it just me?

This is not the case for me. I fantasized about having a family when I was younger and although not exactly what I thought it was going to be it was one of the best things I have ever done including the disappointing moments. At times beyond any happy I had conceived. Without this experience I wouldn't know I could experience this level of love to share. I hope that all can find something similar.

Daido

Some fantasies realized left me disappointed. Maybe it was because of the hype created in my mind and expected too much from the experience.

Other fantasies realized may not have turned exactly as I imagined it but instead resulted in a more fulfilling and beautiful experience. For me, my best experiences come from being a mother and a wife including all of the ups and downs. My husband and child teach me every day, they irritate me everyday, they love my everyday, they bring me joy and pain everyday and I wouldn't trade any those days for anything else in the world.

Gassho,
Ekai