Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

[Ekai]

Continuous fantasizing about the future whether they are joyful or scary dreams, takes us away from being here and now. Daydreaming is enticing but creates disharmony with the natural flow of your life. How many times have you created a fantasy in your mind set on auto-repeat that replayed over and over again? Did that fantasy ever happen exactly as you obsessed about it? Most likely not. In the meantime during the midst of a daydream, life kept going on while the mind was visiting Australia or some beautiful tropical island. Many times our mental energies are wasted on what could be or what you want them to be instead of experiencing life just as it right now. Living in harmony is being grounded and in tune with the present moment whether it's good or bad. The tendency to spin off is very alluring when things are undesirable but time is better spent being with the "bad" instead dulling the experience by letting the mind drift away. I know I am guilty of my mind spinning off to escape difficult and painful situations. Learning to let go of fantasies is an on-going process but definitely worth the effort.

Who knows what will happen tomorrow, or in two weeks or even a year from now. Releasing and dissolving the mental stories quiets the mind and opens the heart to allow wisdom and compassion to shine through. If the mind exists in a world that may never come to fruition, awareness is lost and we may not see a friend suffering who is in need of help or we simply miss the beautiful sunset. If a fantasy comes up in the mind, gently and kindly let it go to create an open, spacious awareness and be who you truly are in this moment right now. For me, that's life worth living than being caught up in fantasies that may or may not ever happen. This is something I work on and let go of every single day.

Just my 2 cents and senseless ambling.

Gassho,
Ekai

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Yes, I agree!

I don't have so many expectations regarding the future anymore. It may sound pessimistic, but it isn't. On the contrary, it helps me enjoy the present so much more. You can still make plans and orient yourself towards the future, but accept that the flow of life can't be controlled and go with that flow without resisting it, jamming along with the jazz as Jundo would say! :lol:

I do set some goals, but when they aren't achieved, it's no longer the end of the world. The earth keeps turning. How important was that goal really? I feel this goes hand in hand with not judging too much. When plans change, new possibilities open up if only we can see them. Even a crisis may in hindsight be seen as having played a crucial role in our development.

When we dwell in the past, we don't live life to the fullest. And when we only focus on the imagined light at the end of the tunnel, we don't see the tunnel, that it's not a tunnel at all, but open, spacious, rich, vibrant life. This moment is where and when it all happens!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Rich]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

You mean I'm not going to win the Masters tournament or score the winning goal in the Stanley cup? Oh well I'll just have to accept reality. I was just thinking this morning eating breakfast how I have a habit of drifting off. And the food tasted so good. What a shame. But I don't beat myself up about it - just continue to practice.

[Ekai]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

I do set some goals, but when they aren't achieved, it's no longer the end of the world. The earth keeps turning. How important was that goal really? I feel this goes hand in hand with not judging too much. When plans change, new possibilities open up if only we can see them. Even a crisis may in hindsight be seen as having played a crucial role in our development.

Gassho,
Pontus

Sometimes new possibilities or unexpected outcomes ends up serving us better by taking us down a higher path that leads to deeper insight and stronger empowerment within ourselves. We just need to open and accepting with life's ebbs and flows to see the lessons presented to us in any given moment.

Gassho,
Ekai

[Koshin]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Who knows what will happen tomorrow, or in two weeks or even a year from now.

Or what will happen in the next minute??? :wink: Oh yes, I am an expert on Fantasizing on the future...even worse, I now come to realize that I am an expert on fantasizing in the past, you know, "that thing never happened, what happened was this other thing instead"... everything to accommodate a series of events of the past (or future) to what my little ego wants or wanted ....Until recently, I was not aware how I was a person so obsessed with controlling everything going on around me (I am sure everyone else around me was aware of this :wink: ), and I even felt proud when everything seemed to go according to my plans .... Now, little by little, I realize the tiny, microscopic part that plays my ego and my plans and fantasies in the course and flow of the universe .... the funny thing is I do not feel bad, but it gives me enormous peace of mind. Now I begin to see that my ideas about the universe are just that, ideas, completely accidental, and therefore should not represent something so "hard and real" to cling on...I still need much practice to be done to live in the moment, with no fantasies of the future or the past, to let go....however, everyday I feel a little less anxiety about it, for somehow I intuitively know it's something I can not accelerate. Just Practice.

Gassho

[Kaishin]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Thank you for sharing, Ekai! Yes I am very guilty of this sort of senseless fantasizing at times. Although through practice I am better able to catch myself doing it. Even then, sometimes I"ll say "oh well... I like this fantasy...think I"ll keep it going." :P Very hard habit to break.

Zazen is a great place to practice (nothing!).

_/_

[Jundo]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Continuous fantasizing about the future whether they are joyful or scary dreams, takes us away from being here and now. Daydreaming is enticing but creates disharmony with the natural flow of your life. How many times have you created a fantasy in your mind set on auto-repeat that replayed over and over again? Did that fantasy ever happen exactly as you obsessed about it? Most likely not. In the meantime during the midst of a daydream, life kept going on while the mind was visiting Australia or some beautiful tropical island. Many times our mental energies are wasted on what could be or what you want them to be instead of experiencing life just as it right now. Living in harmony is being grounded and in tune with the present moment whether it's good or bad. The tendency to spin off is very alluring when things are undesirable but time is better spent being with the "bad" instead dulling the experience by letting the mind drift away. I know I am guilty of my mind spinning off to escape difficult and painful situations. Learning to let go of fantasies is an on-going process but definitely worth the effort.

Hi Ekai,

I personally do not think that fantasizing or daydreaming is itself a bad thing at all (How else would one ever plan then to visit Australia if not dreaming about it first?). We humans are dreamers, and our best ideas start as dreams! However, one should fantasize or dream without becoming there prisoner, or in excess, or forgeting to allow and live in how things are right now. It is okay, for example, to be sick and to daydream about someday becoming healthy ... as long as one also totally embraces even sickness right now. All at once.

I posted the below elsewhere today, but it fits here too.

I often say that it is a great misunderstanding to assert that Buddhism or Zen are about learning to "live in this moment." What other moment can you or have you ever lived in? :shock: Also, it is very human and natural to remember the past (sometimes fondly, sometimes not), or either to long for or worry about something in the future. I do not think it very realistic to try to forget the past or the future, and merely live in the "now now now".

Rather, I counsel folks that this Practice is about being "at one with this moment's way, however this moment is" ... which is not quite the same. If healthy in this moment ... be healthy. If sick and miserable in this moment ... be sick and miserable. In fact, if afraid for the future in this moment ... just be afraid. If sad about one's condition, just be sad. If regretting some bad conduct of the past ... just regret it and wish it would be some other way. If dreaming now about the future ... just dream away!

Of course, we seek to not fall into excesses of fear or sadness or regret or dreams ... and all things in moderation, the Middle Way. But to feel such things in life is perfectly natural, and the very drama of life itself (The old Suttas are filled with stories of even the Buddha getting old and kvetching about his aching back, bad feet and indigestion. [And anyone who has ever picked up a magical Mahayana Sutra knows what great dreamers and fantasists the old teachers were])!

And at the same time ... learn to drop all thought of past, present or future ... sickness and health, life and death ... things to fear and any little "self" to fear them ... how things "should be" or "we wish would be" other than they are. What results is a Joy sweeping in and out both happiness and sadness, a Peace of One Piece that holds all of life's sharp and broken pieces.

All of the above simultaneously, At Once, As One. (one can experience life all these ways at once in Zen Wisdom)

That is a little different than just trying to "live for the day forgetting about tomorrow".

Gassho, J

[Shokai]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Thank you all for this teaching. I too, being human, tend to build huge castles that never get built. I think it is healthy in its own way to purge the mind in this way. However, if at some time you begin to live in those castles without a thought for those beings in reality, you've got a problem. Don't fear those excursions into fantasy, it's all good; just don't live there.

[Sydney]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

I guess I have a multifaceted relationship with my daydreams. When practising zazen and discovering that a fantasy is dominant in my view, I try to gently redirect my attention to what's happening in my body. And surprise surprise, my body will turn out to have been engaged in the fantasy in its own way (at least that's how I read it). Various muscles will have tensed up in a way that feels connected to the emotional side of the fantasy, posture may have shifted, etc. I may adjust my posture, but I try not to get into a "pushing & pulling" engagement with the fantasy, which always runs its course eventually anyway.

If I find myself engaged in fantasy while I'm at work, I may take it as a sign that I need a change of pace. Take a break, go get some water, check in with the boss, whatever. Then I tend to be a bit more fresh when I sit back down to work.

Depending on whether I'm chatting with my significant other, riding my bicycle, or even just enjoying some daydream time, my responses will tend to vary. Sometimes the fantasies wind up in my writing.

Fantasy may not always be appropriate, but it may be a gift to oneself at times.

[jefftos]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Often when I am riding my bike to work I get caught up in daydreams, its easy to do especially when their is little to no traffic and nothing for my mind to cling to. I'll get swept up in it and then suddenly come back to awareness half a mile down the road and wonder how in the world I got there when my mind seemed to be somewhere else completely. Anyway, the concept of being in this present moment has been something I have been pondering lately and I thank Jundo for his teaching on this thread and the others,

Gassho,

Jeff

[Ekai]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Continuous fantasizing about the future whether they are joyful or scary dreams, takes us away from being here and now. Daydreaming is enticing but creates disharmony with the natural flow of your life. How many times have you created a fantasy in your mind set on auto-repeat that replayed over and over again? Did that fantasy ever happen exactly as you obsessed about it? Most likely not. In the meantime during the midst of a daydream, life kept going on while the mind was visiting Australia or some beautiful tropical island. Many times our mental energies are wasted on what could be or what you want them to be instead of experiencing life just as it right now. Living in harmony is being grounded and in tune with the present moment whether it's good or bad. The tendency to spin off is very alluring when things are undesirable but time is better spent being with the "bad" instead dulling the experience by letting the mind drift away. I know I am guilty of my mind spinning off to escape difficult and painful situations. Learning to let go of fantasies is an on-going process but definitely worth the effort.

Hi Ekai,

I personally do not think that fantasizing or daydreaming is itself a bad thing at all (How else would one ever plan then to visit Australia if not dreaming about it first?). We humans are dreamers, and our best ideas start as dreams! However, one should fantasize or dream without becoming there prisoner, or in excess, or forgeting to allow and live in how things are right now. It is okay, for example, to be sick and to daydream about someday becoming healthy ... as long as one also totally embraces even sickness right now. All at once.

I posted the below elsewhere today, but it fits here too.

I often say that it is a great misunderstanding to assert that Buddhism or Zen are about learning to "live in this moment." What other moment can you or have you ever lived in? :shock: Also, it is very human and natural to remember the past (sometimes fondly, sometimes not), or either to long for or worry about something in the future. I do not think it very realistic to try to forget the past or the future, and merely live in the "now now now".

Rather, I counsel folks that this Practice is about being "at one with this moment's way, however this moment is" ... which is not quite the same. If healthy in this moment ... be healthy. If sick and miserable in this moment ... be sick and miserable. In fact, if afraid for the future in this moment ... just be afraid. If sad about one's condition, just be sad. If regretting some bad conduct of the past ... just regret it and wish it would be some other way. If dreaming now about the future ... just dream away!

Of course, we seek to not fall into excesses of fear or sadness or regret or dreams ... and all things in moderation, the Middle Way. But to feel such things in life is perfectly natural, and the very drama of life itself (The old Suttas are filled with stories of even the Buddha getting old and kvetching about his aching back, bad feet and indigestion. [And anyone who has ever picked up a magical Mahayana Sutra knows what great dreamers and fantasists the old teachers were])!

And at the same time (one can experience life all these ways at once in Zen Wisdom) ... learn to drop all thought of past, present or future ... sickness and health, life and death ... things to fear and any little "self" to fear them ... how things "should be" or "we wish would be" other than they are. What results is a Joy sweeping in and out both happiness and sadness, a Peace of One Piece that holds all of life's sharp and broken pieces.

All of the above simultaneously, At Once, As One.

That is a little different than just trying to "live for the day forgetting about tomorrow".

Gassho, J

Thanks Jundo, your teaching is very helpful. Having a balance between living with things just as they are and our dreams for the future is key.

Gassho,
Ekai

[Jundo]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Hi Ekai,

I like to daydream, I like to imagine and fantasize. I am still a kid at heart who likes to play make-believe sometimes. I like to dream about how life and this world could be, and I believe that "what if" is the start of possibilities. I not only see nothing wrong with it, I would hate to give that up! Taigu and Dogen, those poets, are also dreamers in their way too.

So long as one is not a prisoner of one's dreams and fantasies, does not live only for or in the dream, and doesn't simply run there as an escape or hideout from life, I see little wrong with it.

In fact, Buddhism teaches that all this life is something of a dream ... so what is the harm of sometimes adding another layer from time to time? In fact, Dogen called this life "a dream within a dream" ... a dream so dreamy that we best dream it well. Taigu wrote this recently ...

In Japan, the kanji dream, yume, 夢, is often used and cherished by Zen teachers. Of course, it refers to the dreamy quality of our existence, to the fleeting and beautifully changing thing we call life, but it also celebrates the fact that you will meet what you have dreamt. The dream gives birth to what comes to you. You, in the dream within the dream, are actively producing what is around you. To wake up is not necessarily to wake up from the dream, far from it, to wake up is to clearly see that dream and reality are not two. Dogen writes deeply about this. And you may start now to experience it deeply.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9474-the-dream

Gassho, J

[Ekai]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

I do like to daydream, just not in excess.

Here are a couple of my personal daydream favorites:
• When Hunter starts taking martial arts with me. Hopefully my husband will join us but only if he wants to.
• Writing a fantastic martial arts fiction novel. Of course, a woman martial artist would be the main character. Silly me!
• Teaching a group of women self-defense for those who can't afford martial arts classes. Maybe those who have gone through trauma in need of gaining self-confidence while forming bonds with other women to encourage a greater sense of oneness with others and to create deeper healing.

Gassho,
Ekai

[Omoi Otoshi]

Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

Yes, as humans we daydream, imagine and fantasize, but nothing should be done in excess! Those are not bad activities in themselves. Like thoughts, I don't think we should try to suppress them. Clinging to them is what causes problems, dukkha. Daydreaming may even be a sign that we are doing something right, that we are finally giving our mind some space, letting go of trying to control it. I used to suppress thoughts in Zazen, trying to control my mind. Now I let go more, which means I more often catch myself daydreaming. But I prefer that to the wrestling match against the mind that I used to practice.

Creating a fantasy world, trying to escape from the real world, is delusion in my view. Dwelling too much in the past, trying to relive memories of the past, is also creating a fantasy world. Better to always face reality head on instead of trying to escape it (if we can), accepting what is and adapting to the circumstances we find ourselves in. Even the real world may be a fantasy, a dream as Jundo says, but it's the only reality we get. Nothing wrong with memories, as long as they are seen as just memories. Neither is there anything wrong with making plans for the future, as long as we are aware that the future is not real, not here yet, and don't expect it too be exactly as we imagined it. Still, this moment is all there is. We can't escape from it, but we can learn to be aware of it and appreciate it.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Rich]

Re: Fantasizing: Is it really worth it?

There's a time for dreaming and a time for doing. When doing just do it. I think I learned that after my second car accident :lol: