The Real Deal?

[disastermouse]

Re: The Real Deal?

Not only is there nothing lacking here, as I've said earlier - the teachers are very accessible, the teachings are all recorded and can be accessed regardless of time zone and even watched repeatedly. G+ looks like its really helping us sit together more frequently. To top it off, the conversations can include anyone because they don't happen in a particular time or place.

Chet

[Hoyu]

Re: The Real Deal?

We don't need time clocks here for people to check in proof of their sitting times. However, we also do need to come together at times for sittings and other community events and projects to support each other.

Well my post wasn't really about proving ones practice but rather as you said comming together. All those things I mentioned are what I feel are ways of supporting and encouraging eachothers practice. Honestly every morning I get up for work one of the first things I do is check G+ to see who is sitting or has sat. To me it just feels great to see others practice. Kind of like enjoying viewing contrails in the sky. It's not about proof that there was a jet plane but rather just seeing and appreciating what's there.

Ultimately my point was that there is never anything lacking here in relation to a brick and mortar Zendo.
I'm sure I didn't explain all this too well as my lengthly post was encroaching on my sitting time and to me that's a no no!

Gassho,
Houu

[pinoybuddhist]

Re: The Real Deal?

Well, ya know, Zen Practice ... like much of life ... must really be on the honor system...

We don't need time clocks here for people to check in proof of their sitting times. However, we also do need to come together at times for sittings and other community events and projects to support each other.

Gassho, J

I think this is an important point to remember. I started using G+ as a means to reach out and sit with the sangha even though we sit at different times. Actually, there's not much difference between my previous sits and the sits with G+ in the sense that I'm still usually doing it alone (due to different time zones). But somehow there's the sense that I'm not sitting alone, that this practice is not just for me but for others as well. Of course it's the same when I am offline as well. Offline, online, connected, not connected - ah! I just sit. And the universe sits. Life sits.

Anyway, I digress. As I was saying, this is important to remember. I can easily turn this online thing into a practice of punching a time clock and showing everyone "See?! I sat for twenty minutes!) and secretly hope for - what? A gold star? An A? A pat on the head from Jundo and Taigu? "Good boy! Have a doggie biscuit. Now roll over..." That sort of thing. Or I can use this to connect and give/receive support to/from the sangha.

_/|_

[pinoybuddhist]

Re: The Real Deal?

To me it just feels great to see others practice. Kind of like enjoying viewing contrails in the sky. It's not about proof that there was a jet plane but rather just seeing and appreciating what's there.

Exactly. It's so nice to see other people practicing, even if all we see sometimes are words like "So-and-so hung out" with some +1s. Helps fuel our own practice.

[Jundo]

Re: The Real Deal?

To me it just feels great to see others practice. Kind of like enjoying viewing contrails in the sky. It's not about proof that there was a jet plane but rather just seeing and appreciating what's there.

Exactly. It's so nice to see other people practicing, even if all we see sometimes are words like "So-and-so hung out" with some +1s. Helps fuel our own practice.

There is no doubt that sitting as a group makes us somehow stronger and more "stick with it" than sitting alone.

How many mornings do I say to myself before Saturday Zazenkai "I could stay here in bed and sleep a little longer, but Hoyu, Dosho, Dokan and the others are waiting for me to light the candles and turn on the camera!"? How many times during Sesshin, on the third or fourth day when the legs are achy and the mind is wondering whether it is worth it (and how much nicer it would be to go to a movie 8) ), have I kept sitting because my companions are sitting around me?

Is it because of peer pressure, not wanting to be embarrassed by quitting, or just wanting to look like I am hanging in there and doing my role? Yes, honestly, sometimes. Humans are like that (We should sit while dropping ego, but humans are like this nonetheless. Even Dogen probably wanted folks to think well of him and not be thought a crazy old fool by his monksl.).

Is it simply because of the wish to support the group and be part of the "team"? Yes, always. Is it simply because of the extra "energy" (a word I usually try to avoid as spirtual newage fiddle faddle, but which applies here) that the group brings together into the room? Yes, always.

Is it simply that humans ... even Buddhist humans ... are generally social animals and thrive on companionship? Yes, sure (except perhaps during our hermit periods in the hills).

Whatever keeps one practicing beyond ego-non-ego ... keeps one practicing.

Gassho, J

[Omoi Otoshi]

The Real Deal?

We don't need time clocks here for people to check in proof of their sitting times. However, we also do need to come together at times for sittings and other community events and projects to support each other.

Well my post wasn't really about proving ones practice but rather as you said comming together. All those things I mentioned are what I feel are ways of supporting and encouraging eachothers practice. Honestly every morning I get up for work one of the first things I do is check G+ to see who is sitting or has sat. To me it just feels great to see others practice. Kind of like enjoying viewing contrails in the sky. It's not about proof that there was a jet plane but rather just seeing and appreciating what's there.

Ultimately my point was that there is never anything lacking here in relation to a brick and mortar Zendo.
I'm sure I didn't explain all this too well as my lengthly post was encroaching on my sitting time and to me that's a no no!

Gassho,
Houu

Thank you Hoyu!
I realize I have seen G+ from an egoistic perspective. I've only tried sitting on G+ a few times, but it made me self-conscious, so I reverted to sitting alone. Another reason was that I can't plan my sittings in advance, because I don't know when the kid will fall asleep etc, so there was nobody sitting with me most times. But you have shown me that sitting alone on G+ could mean something to somebody, and I believe the self-conscious part may be very good practice. If you can't let go just because the camera is on, can you really let go in other situations, or are you dependant on being alone in a quiet room with a Zafu and a Budda statue?

This thread has really been an eye opener for me. Thanks everybody.

/Pontus

[Hans]

Re: The Real Deal?

Hello,

I have nothing new to add other than saying that I really really appreciate all the wonderful thought provoking input that went into the joint creation of this thread.


Deep gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jiken]

Re: The Real Deal?

Indeed. As Hans said "thought provoking". I'm sure that everybody at some point has asked this question at some point. As I understand it Treeleaf was and experiment from the start. Non Traditional. In the beginning I would question if Treeleaf was legitimate because it did not feel like I thought it should (no wooden floors or zen master in a cave ). Zazen for me was the same. Sitting and my idea of sitting were totally different. Not as mystical or romantic as I had imagined and I was disappointed. With practice...time it now seems to be much more than I ever realized. In the end whether or not it is the real deal will have to be determined by the question asker him or herself. My opinion is that Jundo, Taigu, the priests and Treeleaf sangha are definitely pointing fingers at the hazy moon and I am grateful to be involved.

[Kaishin]

Re: The Real Deal?

For instance if we give you a pointer, a teaching of some sort, you are invited to put it to practice before opening your mouth and not throw praises and criticisms before the reality check.

Thanks again for your words. I think I will stick to a simple gassho or "thanks" when commenting on Talks I've just watched until I've had time to really let the words seep into my bones, at which time more commentary may be warranted. That way, at least, you and Jundo know I am watching!

P.S. This seems to be a perennial problem for students. Just came across this in Shobogenzo Zuimonki recently :mrgreen:

These days, many people who are learning the Way listen to a talk on the dharma, and above all want their teacher to know that they have a correct understanding and want to give good replies. This is why the words they listen to go in one ear and out the other. They still lack bodhi-mind and remain self-centered.
First of all, forget your ego and listen quietly to what others say, and later ponder it well. Then, if you find some faults or have some doubts, you may make criticism. When you have grasped the point, you should present your understanding to your teacher. Waiting to claim immediate understanding shows that you are not really listening to the dharma.

[Rev R]

Re: The Real Deal?

filled with scoundrels...

The union prefers we encourage people to use the term "rogue". It has a much sexier connotation.

[Omoi Otoshi]

The Real Deal?

I prefer "rouge"!
:lol:

/Pontus

[Jundo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Zazen for me was the same. Sitting and my idea of sitting were totally different. Not as mystical or romantic as I had imagined and I was disappointed. With practice...time it now seems to be much more than I ever realized.

Well, for me, transcending 'birth' and 'death', and experiencing all time and space in every grain of sand ...

... is magical and romantic enough! 8)

[Jiken]

Re: The Real Deal?

Yes. I guess that would be enough :lol: I had not thought of it like that. Gassho

Daido

[ghop]

Re: The Real Deal?

Is it because of peer pressure, not wanting to be embarrassed by quitting, or just wanting to look like I am hanging in there and doing my role? Yes, honestly, sometimes. Humans are like that (We should sit while dropping ego, but humans are like this nonetheless. Even Dogen probably wanted folks to think well of him and not be thought a crazy old fool by his monksl.).

Is it simply because of the wish to support the group and be part of the "team"? Yes, always. Is it simply because of the extra "energy" (a word I usually try to avoid as spirtual newage fiddle faddle, but which applies here) that the group brings together into the room? Yes, always.

Is it simply that humans ... even Buddhist humans ... are generally social animals and thrive on companionship? Yes, sure (except perhaps during our hermit periods in the hills).

Whatever keeps one practicing beyond ego-non-ego ... keeps one practicing.

Nicely put.

So many wonderful people here, so many wonderful views of the same misty mountain.

So grateful for Treeleaf. So grateful to be here. This place (no-place) has literally changed my life.

deep deep bows to all of you, my teachers and friends, my brothers and sisters

gassho
Greg

[mr.Lou]

Re: The Real Deal?

The original post at the beginning of this thread brought up a few thoughts that I wish to share. I hope these serve as some benefit through the offering of another perspective.

The idea of an online sangha is definitely something difficult to rectify for some with regard to authenticity. Humans still live in a transitory stage of development in our collective consciousness where we prioritize the physical as seemingly more authentic. I experienced the same feelings of self-doubt and concern over authenticity when I first started attending the University of Phoenix online back in 2003. Online schooling was new then, and there were only three schools that were offering accredited degrees that were completely attainable online. It took me seven years to complete my bachelors degree, and over the course of that time my school grew. By the time I graduated, UoP had grown into the largest university in the world. My school went from being obscure an uncredible by the masses to being widely recognized and uncredible by the masses.

People have criticized my degree by saying its not "real school" or that can't be compared to going to "real college". It really hurt my feelings for a long time because I allowed others to rob me of what I had earned because they believed it to be unauthentic based on the fact that it was online. Then one day, I had an epiphany and something changed in my mind. I cannot tell you how it came about or what caused it, but one day I decided that I knew what I had accomplished and regardless of the opinion of others I still had a bachelors of science in information technology for media and visual communication. I know it represented seven years of struggles to get to internet cafes daily regardless of my location around the world. I know that it represented 120 academic hours of course work completed. I know it is authentic simply because I know it.

People, I have found, use the word "authentic" quite frequently but the truth is that nothing is authentic and everything is authentic. My online degree is "not authentic" because I have never actually been to the University of Phoenix campus in Phoenix, AZ. It is authentic because my brain has endured and shared the same experience that other students there have experienced. It is authentic because I have a piece of paper to prove I have attained this intellectual benchmark. It is not authentic because all I have is this piece of paper that says I have attained this intellectual benchmark.

Authenticity is something that is I have learned through experience, exists and doesn't exist simultaneously; but it is up to the individual to make peace with it. For example, The "authentic" image of an Indian sadoo is a Hindu monk of great spirituality wearing the traditional loan cloth, beard and a bold colorful tikka on their forehead. People believe that is the authentic image because that is the one most frequently depicted in pictures contained within credible sources like national Geographic. However, is the fact that many sadoos bare the look and smell of the destitute and homeless with a bit of mental instability thrown in the more authentic image because that is the one you are most likely to physically encounter in India?

As I have traveled the world, I have seen many firsthand examples where the National Geographic idea of what the world looked like is not the reality I experienced, and it left me to ask which one was authentic. I have concluded that they both are authentic and neither is authentic. They both are because they both exist, whether in the mind on paper or in the corporeal reality, they are manifested. However, neither is authentic because authenticity itself is a figment of human imagination.

The internet is a giant crowd of strangers, and with any such crowd there is the danger of feeling disconnected. I believe, the way to make anything "real" is to manifest the details. Willow mentioned a sense of disconnection and a feeling loss. I believe those feelings are actually internally generated responses that are produced by our own doubts or concerns on the authenticity of the sangha. People can have the same doubts about physical sanghas too because it is a matter of perspective. To change it does not require a changing of the sangha so much as a changing of one's perspective about the sangha. It is as real to an individual as that individual believes it to be. It is as authentic to an individual as they are willing to make it. If one doubts it, then one will be hyper aware of details that confirm its non-existence and lack of authenticity. If one believes it, then one will be hyper aware of details that confirm its existence and marks of authenticity. In a lot of ways, I believe the online temple is the most fitting manifestation of a place for a Soto Zen sangha to practice and gather because it is itself a koan.