The Real Deal?

[disastermouse]

Re: The Real Deal?

I would think newbies might need a few months to settle down to this - if someone's never meditated before it may take time to get used to longer periods?

Just to mention on the length ...

Almost every one of the many many many Zazen groups I have visited in Europe, America and Japan over the years has had a weekly Zazen meeting in length from 90 minutes to 4 hours each time, for new and old alike. If you went to any Zazen sitting in a building you would be expected to sit the same lengths, and it is not considered particularly long.

Although it varies from place to place, standard sitting time for each single Zazen period is often even longer than ours, sometimes 40 to 50 minutes until Kinhin, followed by another 40 to 50 minutes, repeated two or three sets. (At our Zazenkai, sittings are mostly 30 minutes with lots of Kinhin).

The feeling "this is long" is psychological, not really a matter of the legs and such not being able to do so (especially since, at our extremely liberal and forgiving Sangha, I let people walk Kinhin any time the wish when the legs hurt).

Gassho, J

Even at a 'normal sitting' at a zen center, it's usually two 35 minute 'sits' with kinhin between. In my experience. It is actually a bit easier psychologically when you sit with other people because there's a bit of peer pressure.

Chet

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: The Real Deal?

As Kodo Sawaki Roshi said ...

In the world, it’s always about winning or losing, plus or minus. Yet in Zazen, it’s about nothing. It’s good for nothing. That’s why it is the greatest and most all-inclusive thing there is.

...

When somebody asks me what zazen is good for, I say that zazen isn’t good for anything at all. And then some say that in that case they’d rather stop doing zazen. But what’s running around satisfying your desires good for? What is gambling good for? And dancing? What is it good for to get worked up over winning or losing in baseball? It’s all good for absolutely nothing! That’s why nothing is as sensible as sitting silently in zazen. In the world, “good for nothing” just means that you can’t make money out of it.

...

What’s zazen good for? Absolutely nothing! This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you’re?truly practicing what’s good for nothing. Until then, your zazen is really good for nothing.

Ahhh...
How can I resist when you tie an excellent point to my most favorite Zen quotes of all time?
I surrender. I'm looking forward to sitting the Zazenkai this weekend!
It will be silly and great practice.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Jundo]

Re: The Real Deal?

What about something like this:

[youtube]

[/youtube]

All I did was download the flv file from Justin.tv and then uploaded it to YouTube.

This suggestion is wonderful, and we will find a good way to start doing this on a regular basis in the coming weeks. Perhaps I can ask someone to download and upload it, or perhaps we can simultaneously sit the Zazenkai with two cameras on two computers ... one for Justin and one loading right to Youtube.

Very good suggestion that should resolve the access issues with Justin and like services. Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: The Real Deal?

I have a hard time sitting a zazenkai in realtime - but I can sit along to a YouTube or something. I'm doing overtime to pay down medical bills. If I can't check in with the Justin.tv cast once a month, will my membership be broken?

I can commit to the time and watch and follow the YouTube - I just don't know if I can do it in real time.

Chet

[Jinyo]

Re: The Real Deal?

When Willow wrote

'newbies might need a few months - if they are new to meditation' etc

it was in response to Jundo writing this

'Therefore, I am now considering and discussing imposing a rule soon: Our members who have been around here for more than a year must sit at least one community Zazenkai every month'

my simply meaning that a year seemed a long time - but maybe a few months would be good to give new members a chance to settle in. Was not actually questioning the length of time for sitting in the community Zazenkai in any way.

Maybe I am being particularly over-sensitive but I almost wish I hadn't started this thread. I think it needed to stop and a new thread begun - because fundamental issues are coming up.

I'm going to take a rest for a while - not log on - just sit and do a bit of reading.

Thanks for your input - Treeleaf is 'gold' amongst a great deal of dross in this world - but right now I just feel :cry:

(and that - as inadequate as it may seem - is my answer to Taigu's suggestion to ask the question 'who is it in me that doesn't like bad cops?'

:cry: that 'me' and a whole lot more I could say but what would be the point?


Gassho

Willow

[Dokan]

Re: The Real Deal?

Perhaps I can ask someone to download and upload it

If this is helpful to the sangha then please consider my name in the hat to manage it. I already download the FLV and then convert it to MP3 for the podcasts on the Monthly Dharma talks so it's not too much work. However, of course, if someone really has a desire and calling then I don't mind either!

Right now, I am using my personal YouTube account for these uploads. Maybe it makes no difference, but maybe it's wiser to setup a Treeleaf YouTube. In this way we could share the credentials between authors. Wouldn't want someone to come sit zazen with us and run across one of my Christmas videos:

[youtube]

[/youtube]

Maybe I am being particularly over-sensitive but I almost wish I hadn't started this thread. I think it needed to stop and a new thread begun - because fundamental issues are coming up.

I'm going to take a rest for a while - not log on - just sit and do a bit of reading.

Please know that the idea of a required monthly zazenkai has been something that I believe has been kicking around for a while. It's not because of your thread.

Internet communication is troubled and flawed, so please do not take any of the dialogue personally directed! In fact, because fundamental issues are arising, I would argue this thread is a wonderful success! Addressing Justin.TV limitations, the creation of a YouTube conversion process, the drawing in of the Sangha for closer ties through zazenkai...it's all wonderful development of our practice. But I will never argue with someone wanting to sit...please take care of yourself.

Gassho!

Dokan

[Omoi Otoshi]

The Real Deal?

Maybe I am being particularly over-sensitive but I almost wish I hadn't started this thread. I think it needed to stop and a new thread begun - because fundamental issues are coming up.

Maybe those fundamental issues needed to come up. I agree that this thread is a great success. This isn't really about you, your practice or about you starting a thread. Neither is it about my practice, nor Chet's practice, but about this Sangha and how we're going to go about saving all sentient beings together, so don't feel sorry. No need for worry, regret or wishing things were different. It's all good!

Take care,
Pontus

[Shugen]

The Real Deal?

I would also like to thank you for this thread Willow.

Ron


Shugen

[Dosho]

Re: The Real Deal?

Willow,

I agree with the others...thank you for this thread. And if you do need some time to yourself, that's fine, but please come back!

We're always here.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Jinyo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Doken, Pontus, Ron and Dosho - thankyou for posting a supportive message.

I needed a couple of days grace to try and work out why I was feeling upset.

I've re-read this thread and decided that the vulnerability lies within me and I
probably overeacted to a few words and magnified their intent.

At a general level I do feel that words need to be used with care. When I first joined Treeleaf I asked Jundo if this was a
'safe' place to be? This was an unfair question because I didn't really elaborate why I was asking it. I didn't elaborate because I didn't
want to go on about all the negative/nasty stuff that's on the net (about Treeleaf) - written by individuals who take a delight in stirring up dirt. Reading back
through some early threads I can see that this matter has been openly discussed at Treeleaf. I was however (naively?) shocked to see that words from some members postings
had been lifted and copied onto other message boards - that take no responsibilty for moderation.

What has this to do with our Sangha?

I think the clearest way I can explain my upset is that I momentarily (well - perhaps for a few days) felt like I'd be publically ticked off (though - I can see reading
back that I hadn't) and that although I didn't mind so much if this stayed within Treeleaf - there is no guarantee that it will.


I'm just a bit confused about the bounderies of privacy/confidentiality - and what get released into the public arena - or has the potential to be 'lifted'.

Anyway - I have no wish to leave Treeleaf - I stand by what I said in this thread - a supportive community with dedicated teaching.

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

Re: The Real Deal?

I'm just a bit confused about the bounderies of privacy/confidentiality - and what get released into the public arena - or has the potential to be 'lifted'.

Anyway - I have no wish to leave Treeleaf - I stand by what I said in this thread - a supportive community with dedicated teaching.

Gassho

Willow

Hi Willow,

We have tried to deal with these issues in a few ways, some of which take some care on our members' part about their own way of communicating.

One thing is a reminder that postings on this "Topics about Zazen" portion of the Forum are open to the internet, but postings in the "All about Life" and "Jukai" sections are only visible to registered members (as folks tended to discuss rather more personal issues and problems in their lives there). That is not a very strong protection at all, but it is something.

However, much more helpful are the steps we have asked our members to take so that we can still have personal, heart to heart discussion AND keep some protection from spying eyes with ill intents. Those are spelled out in the below thread AND I ASK ALL OUR SANGHA MEMBERS TO REVIEW THE CONTENT AND TAKE IT TO HEART:

CONFIDENTIALITY TIPS for Sangha Members

Dear Leafers,

Our Forum is meant as a place where Sangha members can discuss honestly and frankly matters of Zen Practice and all of life (not two, by the way). We hope that people here feel the confidence, mutual trust and acceptance to be able to “open up,” drop walls, and talk about any subjects in their lives, including very difficult and personal matters, and their connection to Buddhist Teachings.

However, the nature of our Sangha makes it very open to prying eyes via the internet.

Thus, a few simple steps by our members can let us have both the security to talk absolutely openly and great privacy from the “rest of the internet”.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3778

Gassho, Jundo

[Tb]

Re: The Real Deal?

I thought I would start a new thread on this within the Zazen discussion because it felt more appropriate. I hope it's Ok to begin with a quote from Pontus
that made me think.

'In an internet Sangha, unless we spend a lot of time in Dokusan, talking about our private life and practice with the teacher, it is hard for him to know for sure how real of a deal we are. That is the drawback with an internet Sangha. It's an experiment, a process, breaking new ground. '

Hi.

I'm no authority of any kind, a humble ordained Zen Priest in training, and just an modest fool at best, so take this for what its worth...
So just to jump back to the OP, it doesn't have to take alot of time in dokusan, although it might help, to really show you're true face.
And just to indulge in myself for a bit, i have been skyping almost weekly with both Jundo and Taigu from almost the beginning/s of their, and mine, involvement in Treeleaf. I have been in KFC's and Treeleaf Teaparties with a lot of people around here. Does that show anything? :twisted:

On a second thought does it matter if you show your true face to someone else?

And the drawbackthing doesn't only apply to us, it applies to any sangha, it's always an experiment, an process, a breaking of new ground.
So, let it go.
Contribute in any way you can and let things settle on themselves.

Thank you for your practice.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Omoi Otoshi]

The Real Deal?

Yes, I agree (although I do believe Treeleaf is breaking more new ground than most other Sanghas)!

I apologize for the clumsy wording in my cited post!

Real is made real by our mind, it doesn't have any inherent "realness". We are the real deal when we perceive ourselves as such. In my eyes, I am the real deal, this Sangha is the real deal, our teachers are the real deal. In someone else's mind, an internet Sangha may not be the real deal. It really doesn't matter. Maybe they should focus on their own practice.

The only proof is in the pudding, and this pudding is starting to look delicious!

What I meant to say with the Dokusan part was that in an internet Sangha, if you can't sit Zazenkai live due to time zones and you seldom or never have Dokusan, a teacher really has no idea how much of a real deal you are. Your practice could be very wholehearted or very sporadic. In a physical Zendo, you either show up or you don't. Here, you could show up on the forums every day, but your practice could still be non-existant. Or never be seen on the forums and never participate live, but still sit every Zazenkai and dedicate your life to practice, without anyone knowing.

So I agree that it's important to participate in the Zazenkai, even if it isn't live, and to share that we did with the Sangha. That way there's no doubt in anyone's mind.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Hoyu]

Re: The Real Deal?

Pontus wrote:
Your practice could be very wholehearted or very sporadic. In a physical Zendo, you either show up or you don't. Here, you could show up on the forums every day, but your practice could still be non-existant. Or never be seen on the forums and never participate live, but still sit every Zazenkai and dedicate your life to practice, without anyone knowing.

I see your point but I disagree. Here's why. When doing live sittings during Zazenkai justinTV has a sidebar for chatting. When people come online they message everyone with a greeting of Gassho. After sitting everyone drops a thank you message as well. You can truly know they are there because they are communicating by typing in real time.

Everyone's daily sittings(or sitting with the live or recorded Zazenkai) on G+ can be posted for all to join in. After, everyone can see that you sat. Our teachers, fellow members, etc. can go there anytime and scroll through the postings and know that quite a few people are sitting regularly. We even encourage eachother by taking notice and dropping a +1 or comment when it is seen that people have sat(one of my favorite features of g+ by the way).

There is no doubt that ones dedication can be easily seen if they wish to participate in using these features.

It's not all roses though. It's actually more time consuming/hassle to have to sign into so many sites to drop a message or set up the computer for G+. Some people may even choose to avoid all that in preference of a simpler practice. That's totally fine. I'm just saying that there are many resources available to us. So much so that I feel there is nothing lacking here in relation to a brick and mortar Zendo. It's just a slightly different route, given our virtual nature, but the destination of the two is the same!

Gassho,
Hoyu(who is about to go sit on G+ now)

[Jundo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Pontus wrote:
Your practice could be very wholehearted or very sporadic. In a physical Zendo, you either show up or you don't. Here, you could show up on the forums every day, but your practice could still be non-existant. Or never be seen on the forums and never participate live, but still sit every Zazenkai and dedicate your life to practice, without anyone knowing.

I see your point but I disagree. Here's why. When doing live sittings during Zazenkai justinTV has a sidebar for chatting. When people come online they message everyone with a greeting of Gassho. After sitting everyone drops a thank you message as well. You can truly know they are there because they are communicating by typing in real time.

Well, ya know, Zen Practice ... like much of life ... must really be on the honor system. A fellow can look like she is sitting lovely Zazen ... but just be sitting there thinking inside about baseball and the latest episode of her favorite tv show. One can act like a saint on the outside, yet on the inside be thinking how to cheat someone. Is that "showing up"? Do we not cheat ourselves even if giving the appearance of going through the motions?

Believe me, monasteries of wood and stone are filled with scoundrels, cheats, predators, apple polishers and "just trying to get enough credits to graduate" types among all the sincere, hard working and even saintly folks found there too (as in any school or institution)! Sometimes, hard to tell who is who, and the scoundrels sometimes seem to win the day! It is not much different in any Sangha, either this one or one under a roof (and believe me, having sat with enough of the latter kind, they get all kinds of people too and often get fooled by someone's skin deep piety and fake sincerity!). While a Zen teacher can read minds ... that doesn't mean the teacher can read minds! :shock:

We don't need time clocks here for people to check in proof of their sitting times. However, we also do need to come together at times for sittings and other community events and projects to support each other.

Gassho, J