The Real Deal?

[Al]

Re: The Real Deal?

One way to help yourself get the "real deal" is to interact with sangha mates inside and outside of this forum. With groups on Facebook, Google Plus, Skype and Twitter, you can get a more well-rounded view of the sangha regulars. I encourage everyone to seek these out and participate as much as they like.

Also, as these other formats are less formal, faster paced, and offer less time to write out a "perfect" response, they can be excellent tools in getting over the Zen "honeymoon" and settling down into the work of the Zen "marriage."

Lots of times I say dumb stuff. Practice, practice.

[Koshin]

Re: The Real Deal?

My two cents on this. First, of course that being a virtual Sangha ( or not :wink: ) it makes some things different, but, after the same initial doubts that some users posted before, now I come to this conclusions.

First....If a go to an actual Zendo, even daily, and talk to my teacher every day (yes, if anybody could do that :roll: )....can he could actually "see" the results of my practice trough my own eyes?...could he know something about me better than me? I don´t think so....he may be ahead in the path to enlightment, but the place where I stand, the things that I have to not-do.....nobody knows better than me, even if I don't now what to not-do next :shock: . Finally, this is a path that every each one of us must walk by their own feet. And the work and words of our teachers here are really helpful on that, for every one of us.

Obviously,in the private talks with the teachers I can touch more delicate or sensitive topics....but, actually, maybe we are not as different as any one else, and because of that I can see the forum as the oportunity of peeking in another's Dokusan :wink: ...sort of a collective one, which I thinks enriches our collective Practice, and because of that I thank each of the members of the Sangha, because of sharing their comments and questions, because their doubts are my doubts, and their knowledge becomes mine....well, not always but that is entirely my fault ops:

About the recorded Zazenkais....I have been actually doing some of them live, when I have the chance, some of them recorded..... It felt a little silly to me the first times, but then I realized that taking the time to do something that helps my own growth and Practice (even if it is at midnight when you finally have the chance to), it doesn't matter if it is recorded or live......if only "live shows" where real and good...people won't see TV or Movies, even if there were actually good shows. :shock: Besides, I really appreciate the effort of our teachers and fellows here to actually be there, in real time or not....that is something great, as every Zazenkai is different, and because every time someone sits, a little bit of me does the same, even if a I'm sleeping or watching dumb TV shows.

Finally, being that I do not speak English (as will be noted in the way I write ops: ), and having it to be in black and white, gives me the opportunity to think a bit before speaking, which is always good, and the fact that our "speech" gets recorded, allows us to return again and again, with new eyes and (hopefully) better understanding.

I do not have much time into this Sangha yet, I do not have personal relationships with nobody here yet, but It will only be a matter of time and Practice to make it feel even more "real"....so, thanks every and each one of you treeleafers

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: The Real Deal?

Hello Willow!

I hope it's Ok to begin with a quote from Pontus that made me think.

Damn. ops: Sorry about that! :lol: :wink:

I turned Taigu's comment around and asked myself does Treeleaf deliver the 'real deal' for me. Not meeting a person in the flesh is definately a drawback. Treeleaf has quite a lot of members - a quick turnover in posts/subjects. At times it's hard to feel an authentic connection because it's like throwing an idea/thought/question out into an empty room. It's lovely when someone responds - but sometimes there is no response. This is also understandable - it isn't possible to reply to every post - or necessary or appropriate to always expect some reply. But sometimes I'm left with the feeling 'was that a dumb or uninteresting thing to say?' In face to face conversation it's easier to judge all of this.

Yes, sometimes it feels like you throw something into an empty room. I think we have all felt that. But even though you don't always get a reply, people are still reading what you write. And even when nobody seems to notice a post, maybe you needed to say it, for yourself. And sometimes for me, it's just the ego that wants someone to notice, wants some gratification. In that way, it's great practice! :wink:

Many people in the Zen world seem to be of the opinion that an internet Sangha is a joke and that you need to meet with a teacher regularly in the flesh and blood to be practicing real Zen buddhism. Since I'm 200 km from the nearest flesh and blood Zen teacher, I faced the choice of either practicing without a teacher or join Treeleaf. In the beginning, I admit I had my doubts. To be completely honest, it seemed like a second choice alternative, but better than nothing... ops: :roll:

But since I joined, it feels as if this Sangha, its members and its teachers have gone from strength to strength. Maybe it has. Or maybe what has changed the most is me, or rather my views, ideas and perceptions. Maybe through sitting, listening and interacting, through being as honest to myself and others as possible, through dropping some of the judging, expecting and running after what's next, this Sangha was truly realized, made real, the true Sangha seen as for the first time.

Only two months ago, in the thread you quoted, I said I wasn't the real deal because I hadn't yet committed completely to this Sangha.
I hereby commit completely to this Sangha!
I hereby declare myself to be the real deal!
I hereby declare Treeleaf to be the real deal!

You are all wonderful, you truly are. When someone needs support, the Sangha is always there and supportive. When someone needs a teacher, one is always available. As many of you have already said, we are spoiled with teacher presence in this place! I still consider Treeleaf to be an experiment, but one that seems to be working very well indeed! I'm proud to be a small part of it! I wouldn't go as far as to say that Treeleaf is the fourth turning of the wheel, but it sure helps keep that wheel in motion! :lol:

At the end of the day we have to be our own judge of all this - I hope some sincerity shows through - but I'm taking more than I'm giving - and I'd like to think that the taking from here shows up as 'giving' elsewhere.

No Willow, you are giving a lot, here too. Thanks for that, and for practicing.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Jinyo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Hi Pontus!

forgive me for quoting you again ops: but necessary :wink:

'Only two months ago, in the thread you quoted, I said I wasn't the real deal because I hadn't yet committed completely to this Sangha.
I hereby commit completely to this Sangha!
I hereby declare myself to be the real deal!
I hereby declare Treeleaf to be the real deal! '

glad you got those words down before me - because I was coming back to say that you are the real deal - it was your warm and friendly input that made me feel at home and more able to post here when I first started.

So thanks Pontus - and all other Treeleafers who give their time to being here and helping newcomers to feel at home.

Gassho

Willow

[Neika]

Re: The Real Deal?

In my experience, this really isn't much different from a 'traditional' sangha. The confusion we all experience when we first come to Treeleaf is the same that we feel when we visit a zen center for the first time. Who do I talk to? Who don't I talk to? Where do I go? What do I do? What did I get myself into? But we learn, we grow, we settle into the routine of the sangha, and soon we know our way around. Eventually we get to know the people, at least to some degree. But, in my opinion, this is where our sangha begins to veer away from other sanghas. I kid you not, I have spent more time, in major zen centers, sitting around listening to gossip and trying to stay out of the local politics than I ever did meditating. In years of attending centers I never had dokusan, very little formal training, just learning by osmosis, with the occasional helpful, more likely critical, comment.

There is far more interaction with teachers here, than any other place that I have ever been. There is far more information being presented, and instruction being offered, than I have ever seen. Most importantly, people here are genuinely supportive, and are far more helpful, than any place that I have ever seen.

I think that we are different from most other sanghas out there. But it is a difference to be embraced, a difference that helps, not hinders.

[Jiken]

Re: The Real Deal?

Hey Willow,

In addition to all the opportunities listed (google plus, pm etc) I would encourage you to attend the Tea Party hosted by Fugen and Shohei. I had some of the same feelings and it really helped me get started.

[Ekai]

Re: The Real Deal?

Before Treeleaf I practiced mainly on my own for a few years which was fine. I have been with Treeleaf for just over a year and during this time I learned so much more than if I had kept practicing alone. I am humbled everyday by the wisdom and knowledge I read in everyone's posts. The dedication Treeleafers have for their Buddhist practice with their support and compassion for sentient beings has been a great inspiration. Here we are located all around the world living in different cultures, but together on this Buddhist path experiencing it in our own unique and personal way. It truly is a remarkable and beautiful thing. I never felt such a strong connection with other people in different countries or other parts of my own country until I came here. I am very grateful to be a part of this Sangha and to be guided by such honest and wise teachers. So for me at least, it's the real deal.

Gassho,
Ekai

[Jinyo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Ian, Mike, Ekai,

thankyou for your thoughts.

I hope members continue to add to this thread. What is written here is really a tribute to Jundo and Taigu's effort and a rebuttal to
some of the criticisms I've seen on other forums as to the notion of an online sangha being workable.

This thread has blown away any fantasy I had of a geographically close Zendo being somehow more 'real' - and the irony is I couldn't go anyway
as I'm bed-bound/ill a lot of the time! :roll:

So - I have every reason to be grateful for Treeleaf.

Gassho

Willow

[Taigu]

Re: The Real Deal?

In my experience, this really isn't much different from a 'traditional' sangha. The confusion we all experience when we first come to Treeleaf is the same that we feel when we visit a zen center for the first time. Who do I talk to? Who don't I talk to? Where do I go? What do I do? What did I get myself into? But we learn, we grow, we settle into the routine of the sangha, and soon we know our way around. Eventually we get to know the people, at least to some degree. But, in my opinion, this is where our sangha begins to veer away from other sanghas. I kid you not, I have spent more time, in major zen centers, sitting around listening to gossip and trying to stay out of the local politics than I ever did meditating. In years of attending centers I never had dokusan, very little formal training, just learning by osmosis, with the occasional helpful, more likely critical, comment.

There is far more interaction with teachers here, than any other place that I have ever been. There is far more information being presented, and instruction being offered, than I have ever seen. Most importantly, people here are genuinely supportive, and are far more helpful, than any place that I have ever seen.

Very good to hear
You know, some of you see Treeleaf just to express criticism, as people asking for this and that, questionning this and that, making a fuss about this and that...When you don't f.... pay a penny for the time ( Pardon my French :mrgreen: :P :wink: :!: ), the energy that guys around here put into this. The elders, the lay people, the priests...

There is so much here, available to everybody everywhere. And it takes a few people to show GRATITUDE.

thank you.

gassho


T.

[Daijo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Taigu,

Of all people you should know that is not not French.

Seriously though, I fully and completely appreciate treeleaf. I have not been here long, but it is so valuable. deep thanks to all who have worked so hard to create and maintain this sangha. Thank you for being.

[Jinyo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Taigu wrote

'You know, some of you see Treeleaf just to express criticism, as people asking for this and that, questionning this and that, making a fuss about this and that...When you don't f.... pay a penny for the time '

The gratitude members feel is clear from this thread. The phrase 'some of you' is casting a pretty wide net. You might say if the cap fits wear it - right now I don't know if I'm wearing the cap or not :?:

My understanding is that Treeleaf will not accept donations. I would be quite happy to pay a membership fee - for people's time/effort. It feels like a double bind to me. Why criticize for the lack of an act of 'thanking' that we're not allowed to make

Gassho

Willow

[Shugen]

Re: The Real Deal?

There is so much here, available to everybody everywhere. And it takes a few people to show GRATITUDE.

thank you.

gassho


T.

How would you like us to express our gratitude? Are you looking for something specific?

Ron

[Omoi Otoshi]

The Real Deal?

Very good to hear
You know, some of you see Treeleaf just to express criticism, as people asking for this and that, questionning this and that, making a fuss about this and that...When you don't f.... pay a penny for the time ( Pardon my French :mrgreen: :P :wink: :!: ), the energy that guys around here put into this. The elders, the lay people, the priests...

There is so much here, available to everybody everywhere. And it takes a few people to show GRATITUDE.

Dear Taigu,
Would you mind clarifying/rephrasing this post? Because I don't understand what you mean. You mean people don't show gratitude?

Thank you,
Pontus

[Rich]

Re: The Real Deal?

Grateful to everyone and everything
You can't dream something like this
It takes practice.

[Jundo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Jundo is the Good Cop, Taigu is the Bad Cop! 8)

We also sit No Good/No Bad Cop.