The Real Deal?

[Jinyo]

I thought I would start a new thread on this within the Zazen discussion because it felt more appropriate. I hope it's Ok to begin with a quote from Pontus
that made me think.

'In an internet Sangha, unless we spend a lot of time in Dokusan, talking about our private life and practice with the teacher, it is hard for him to know for sure how real of a deal we are. That is the drawback with an internet Sangha. It's an experiment, a process, breaking new ground. '

It has never occured to me to approach Taigu or Jundo for a individual talk because I understand that this time (which must be restricted considering the commitments that Jundo and Taigu have outside of Treeleaf) is for very sensitive matters/emergencies. I agree with Pontus that this makes it difficult
for a teacher to judge a members commitment but I also experience another side to this.

I turned Taigu's comment around and asked myself does Treeleaf deliver the 'real deal' for me. Not meeting a person in the flesh is definately a drawback. Treeleaf has quite a lot of members - a quick turnover in posts/subjects. At times it's hard to feel an authentic connection because it's like throwing an idea/thought/question out into an empty room. It's lovely when someone responds - but sometimes there is no response. This is also understandable - it isn't possible to reply to every post - or necessary or appropriate to always expect some reply. But sometimes I'm left with the feeling 'was that a dumb or uninteresting thing to say?' In face to face conversation it's easier to judge all of this.

Occasionally Jundo or Taigu will add an encouraging response (or constructive criticism!) and that is always welcome - because then it feels real - like 'yes, I do have a teacher' - but I'm in awe at the number of posts they have to read through - and obviously they can't give out individual responses all the time.

So really - though I'm deeply appreciative of this sangha - there is also a sense of loss and wanting it (quite unrealistically) to be more. But I do show up as much as I can - and my practice has deepened considerably as a result. And I do appreciate the input of sangha members.

At the end of the day we have to be our own judge of all this - I hope some sincerity shows through - but I'm taking more than I'm giving - and I'd like to think that the taking from here shows up as 'giving' elsewhere.

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Hi,

I was going to wait to see what other folks had to say, but I want to seed the conversation with a few perspectives.

I just heard a talk by David Chadwick, one of the original students at San Francisco Zen Center in the 60's, who said it was actually quite hard to meet privately with Shunryu Suzuki, and folks were lucky to get Dokusan with him once a year!

How much "face time" can one have with teachers and fellow students at a Zen Center one drives to once or twice a week ... or even each day, if most of the time is spent sitting, not socializing, and a typical "docusan" may happen now and then, and for a few short minutes at most (it is not like a weekly hours long session of psychotherapy)? How much actual personal treatment from teachers does a monk get at one of the very large monasteries in China or Japan?

In Soto Zen, most of the "work" is by the student with her own "me, myself and I" .... and the best that other "Dharma Friends" including Teachers and fellow Sangha folks can offer are some helpful tips, sharing and "fat chewing." Ultimately, if one wants encouragement and to know "how am I doing" ... nobody outside you can truly be the final word on that. Only you can know how you are ... and how Zen practice is working in one's life to bring Wisdom, Compassion and such. In fact, the teacher may approve of a student's understanding when the teacher sees that the student is now at home with the student! :shock:

There may be a touch of the "What's Next" syndrome here I spoke about in this week's sit-a-long.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4745

... how can I respond to such a question when the very heart of this Path is learning to live and be this life radically FREE OF THE NEED FOR 'WHAT'S NEXT', LIBERATED OF 'SOMETHING MORE THAT NEED BE DONE', FULFILLED OF 'ANYTHING MISSING'!

And a small "by the way" ... Taigu and I do have "office hours" for dokusan meetings by Skype and such. We do prefer to keep matters open here in the Forum where everyone can join in the process, but we do like to meet and get to know folks privately too.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2826

Anyway, maybe I should just let others give their views and be quiet.

Gassho, J

[murasaki]

Re: The Real Deal?

Willow,

Thank you for articulating what I have also been turning over in my own mind but have not been quite able to say as eloquently as that.

I often have that feeling of, "That was a dumb post, why did I say it that way?" Or I write something I think is relevant and important and it goes overlooked...that is no one's fault, it's not possible to comb through every post and I have missed a lot of posts from other people for that reason.

I also feel a lot of discomfort about the fact that I, and all of us, are more complex than what we can convey through forums and so what I post can be (and has been) taken out of context. That really bothers me even in real life. And of course, my selfish mind doesn't like to remind me that that is what's happening when someone posts something I find disagreeable; I can take others out of context just as easily.

I have only had time for dokusan with Taigu once, and Jundo is probably thinking I'm avoiding him; again, not as clear a matter as that in this experimental context. I have participated in a number of Fugen's KFCs, which probably makes it look like I prioritise his views over those of Taigu and Jundo which is not the case -- it's much more of a matter of availability and yes, I am sorry to say it, convenience. It's just kind of "what happens". Then I am tempted to blame myself for not being more active, appropriately active...what? I'm not sure what I am missing. I always have this odd feeling I'm doing something wrong or I'm not in the right "place" at the right time.

Everyone's experience in the forums is quite different, even when we are reading and responding to some of the same posts. Therefore everyone's perception of the culture here can be quite different.

Being in a time zone where the live shikantaza is difficult for me, I admit I am disinclined to do the recorded one after; that seems silly but it's how I feel.

It gives me a passive feeling, like I'm waiting for everything to sort itself out because I'm not really sure how to make things "better". I'll keep thinking about that and want to hear others' thoughts too. Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this.

Gassho
Julia

[Shokai]

Re: The Real Deal?

Willow wrote;

At times it's hard to feel an authentic connection

Julia wrote;

It gives me a passive feeling, like I'm waiting for everything to sort itself out

Jundo wrote;

nobody outside you can truly be the final word on that. Only you can know how you are ...

Shokai wrote;

Or, who you are, for that matter :roll:

Is what one says or writes dependent on the responses received ? The most valuable thing I've learned from Jundo is to "just sit"; he wrote it on the back of my Rakusu. One can go on and on trying to intellectualize the answers but they flow better if you just sit. I feel the greatest benefit from Treeleaf is the interaction (in the sitting room) on Google+ which hopefully will be re-integrated/ embeded back into this website. If it is the social aspect that you crave, the PM feature works for well. You can expand into email or you can also use Skype. The Discussion Forum doesn't need to be the final limit. All in all, this virtual world is quite flexible.

[alan.r]

Re: The Real Deal?

As a newcomer, I've wondered the same things. However, I try to view each video that Taigu or Jundo posts as a direct meeting, and though of course it is not this, one's perception about such things matters. While Jundo and Taigu can't possibly make it to every conversation (though I have been impressed by the number of conversations they enter), it is the videos, to me, that really make this Sangha something special.

To be completely honest, when I first joined here, I was, well, not intimidated, but sort of like: Man, where do I even begin? I've gotten some nice private messages welcoming me and some nice invention to beginner talks, and yet, at the same time, I still felt: how does one enter this conversation? Just begin, I decided.

In any case, another, not problem, but factor for me is, I need time away from the internet. From the computer in general. Part of my job depends on me being on a computer often and so I often slip away just to be away. The computer, in my experience, can be very draining, and this is a personal drawback of Treeleaf. Nonetheless, I've been extremely impressed by the amount that both Taigu and Jundo are active here, and I've often wondered if this internet style of communication actually puts one in contact with the teachers more (in that we all get to view their responses, etc (and I think an argument could be made that, yes, we, the members of treeleaf anyway, might get or see more communication from the teachers here)).

[Daijo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Please understand that I only speak from my own experiences and perspective, but here is what I can offer from them.

My family has been very involved with a lovely place called Bodhi Monastery in the rolling hills of New Jersey for about 2 years now. When I say involved, I mean it's at times a second home. We do everything from weekly services, to setting up the dormitories for retreats and everything in between (like weeding the courtyard). I have found myself on a chartered fishing vessel in the middle of the rocking Atlantic Ocean chanting "Namu Phen Shi' Shi Jia Muo Ni Fo" as we sprinkled the ashes of Venerable Master Jen Chun into the sea. We sit in meditation with other lay practitioners, study various books under the Abbot Venerable Quacheng's guidance, and even help prepare meals. It's lovely. But in all honesty, I don't feel anywhere near as connected there as I do here. For one, I'm not a monk, and there's a cultural barrier there as the Chinese traditionally see lay practitioners very differently than we tend to be in the West. There is no personal relationship with a teacher, and basically we receive what is offered.

I also have some experience with a practicing Sangha in the White Plum lineage. I can tell you, there is some dharma discourse, mainly based on koan study, lots of shikantaza, lot's of kinhin, but nowhere near the vast wealth of knowledge and teachings that I have found here. From my personal experience I believe we get much more "personal time" here would ever be available in a "traditional" setting.

As with any student/teacher relationship or any congregation, you get out of it what you put in.

Gassho,

Chuck

[Risho]

Re: The Real Deal?

I'm so glad you posted that question Willow! Imagine if you'd have asked that in Dokusan, and you didn't share with the rest of us? As Jundo said, he likes to keep things open. I agree with this. I personally haven't taken Dokusan because Taigu and Jundo are so responsive and giving as it is, they answer and provide input regularly.

I also agree that no matter who the teacher is, the practice is reliant on one's self. I mean even if there is no independent self, the interdependent oneself still has to hold up their end of the bargain , ie. they are responsible for one's practice. The teacher is not a crutch. They should not take responsibility or authority for any of us. As Capt. Picard told Q, "I'm not your father confessor".

I'm in an agreeable mood today. lol But I also agree that this may be a grasping, what's next sort of question. When I first came here, I really wanted to prove my zen worthiness by posting or whatever. But now it's more like a "still waters run deep sort of thing." Practice, contribute to posts, etc, participate in Jukai. Not too much, not too little. Just try to be myself. Easy does it. I think consistency in practice is the most important. I think seeking validation is sort of human nature, but I also believe zen releases us from that bondage. If one's practice is reliant on anyone or anything elses approval it is not genuine.

Anyway my 2 cents

Gassho,

Risho

[Nenka]

Re: The Real Deal?

This is interesting. Sometimes I think I share Willow's concerns, of wanting this to be more, or wondering if it even should be more. I grew up in overcrowded public schools and sort of learned to do a lot of work myself and not lean heavily on teachers' direct help, approval, or whatever. That's not a good or bad thing, but these days I often second-guess whether that's the "right" way or if I should have been different all this time. :roll:

I suspect alan.r is right in that we probably DO have more communication with our teachers--and each other--than most sangha. And there's so much information here that it can be overwhelming. I've read that having too much information, too many choices, too many conversations going on can be stressful to people. Maybe it's so.

I don't have much to add, but ultimately it's just about sitting on the cushion, whether you do it alone, with a roomful of people, or a camera on your monitor. That kind of accountability is the real deal.

Gassho

Jen

[murasaki]

Re: The Real Deal?

There may be a touch of the "What's Next" syndrome here I spoke about in this week's sit-a-long.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4745

...I am guilty as charged! And grateful for the perspective offered by the responses here. It's another thing about this forum...after putting out posts full of my mind-theatre, and seeing responses more thoughtful than what I posted, there's this feeling of *oops*, having it exposed for all to see... ops:

But then again that's no different than in real life, which is why I have social anxieties. Different post (or no post at all, it's way bigger than I can grasp right now).

Is what one says or writes dependent on the responses received ?

I have been making it that way, haven't I? Good point.

Chuck: Your perspective certainly does increase my appreciation of Treeleaf, thank you for that insight.

I also agree that no matter who the teacher is, the practice is reliant on one's self. I mean even if there is no independent self, the interdependent oneself still has to hold up their end of the bargain , ie. they are responsible for one's practice. The teacher is not a crutch. They should not take responsibility or authority for any of us. As Capt. Picard told Q, "I'm not your father confessor".

That's a cultural thing that many suppose they are immune to but we're actually not upon examination...another wakeup call for me.

I don't have much to add, but ultimately it's just about sitting on the cushion, whether you do it alone, with a roomful of people, or a camera on your monitor. That kind of accountability is the real deal.

I am starting to get it now. Perhaps it would be good to make this a sticky thread? Deep gassho.

Julia

[Shokai]

Re: The Real Deal?

WOW, Jen, Cyril,Chuck, Alan, Julia, Willow, (and of course Jundo :shock: ); I'd call the response to this thread a Grand Slam.
Anyone interested to go a step further?

Click Here http://bit.ly/A6nL4l and select "newer"

[Jinyo]

Re: The Real Deal?

Thanks for the responses - there's an interesting mix of perspectives here.

But I'd say - all in all - we're in agreement that this sangha is a really good place to be

Gassho

Willow

[Rich]

Re: The Real Deal?

I turned Taigu's comment around and asked myself does Treeleaf deliver the 'real deal' for me. Not meeting a person in the flesh is definately a drawback. Treeleaf has quite a lot of members - a quick turnover in posts/subjects. At times it's hard to feel an authentic connection because it's like throwing an idea/thought/question out into an empty room. It's lovely when someone responds - but sometimes there is no response. This is also understandable - it isn't possible to reply to every post - or necessary or appropriate to always expect some reply. But sometimes I'm left with the feeling 'was that a dumb or uninteresting thing to say?' In face to face conversation it's easier to judge all of this.


Willow

I can identify with what you say above. My primary interaction with treeleaf is in the forum and without feedback you don't really know if your comments are helpful. So maybe the expression of yourself has to be enough without any expectation of response. But its natural in life to expect some response when communicating.

So really - though I'm deeply appreciative of this sangha - there is also a sense of loss and wanting it (quite unrealistically) to be more. But I do show up as much as I can - and my practice has deepened considerably as a result. And I do appreciate the input of sangha members.

What you are seeing in this sangha is the actual thinking and feeling of people who practice zazen or are interested in practicing. Also you get direct input, teaching and direction from experienced teachers. If this place helps in maintaining and growing your practice then it is functioning correctly. I would hope that if I say something really dumb or offensive someone will tell me about it otherwise I'll assume its either helpful or nuetral

[Kyonin]

Re: The Real Deal?

Willow,

In my experience, Treeleaf has been the home I have always looked for. People here are oh so real and I even have wonderful pen pals from here!

When I got here I was very curious on seeing how things worked around here, but the more I participated and connected with people, the more I understood that on the other side of the screen are real people with complex lives that come here to learn and grow.

My life has changed up to the point that a lot of my talk here at home is about what's going on with my dharma brothers at Treeleaf.

Last year's Ango was a challenging and FANTASTIC experience. I did lots of sitting and studying, I got to connect with Bryan my partner, and I got several talks with Jundo. Sometimes I wish I could be on the same room, but I'm still grateful for the technology we have now.

If for all that Treeleaf wasn't real enough, I got the back piece for my rakusu with Jundo's and Mina's calligraphy on it. Just to see an envelope coming from Japan with my name on it made me happy and glad I discovered the sangha.

All in all, Treeleaf is an out of the box sangha but one that sure makes you feel at home.

[Risho]

Re: The Real Deal?

I do have to say that sometimes the tone in which we write on an internet forum vs how we speak can be limiting. I mean when I read my stuff I always seem to come off as some perfect something or other (or like I'm a damned robot), but I'm a human and very imperfect, even if my posts convey someone who really is a master of everything... probably my arrogance coming out in my writing. lol But I seek validation all the time.

Gassho,

Risho

P.S I just wanted to point that out, because I don't mean to be condescending; I hope my posts don't sound like that. If they do, please call me out on it.

[Marek]

Re: The Real Deal?

Thank you Willow, Jundo and all Treeleafers.

As a new guy here (well, two months here is not long so I call myself ,,new one") I have no doubt that this is REAL Sangha.

Like most of people on Treeleaf I was at first skeptic a little about this too. But I am not now.

I find Jundo's and Taigu's teachings insightful ( I hope I will muster up the courage for Dokusan one day ops like as threads of members here. And what is also important for me is that opportunity to sit with a bunch of really, really great people on G+ (and I hope that zendo on G+ will be growing :wink: ).

I found Treeleaf (or Treeleaf found me...?) in perfect moment in my live when I was determined to make zazen a natural part of my daily live. And it happens!! That is why wrote in my first post that this is like a return to home (I'm with you Kyonin in this).

On the other hand I have to say that I find Treeleaf hard for those who just start ,,an andventure" with Zen. I ' ve got this feeling (and maybe someone will disagree with me) that everybody need guidance how to sit in zazen direct, eye to eye comtact from teacher or his student in..hmm..,,real"...zendo, and also taste sitting with a ,,fleshy" sniffing, snoring, etc zeniest :wink:

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