Run Away = Bodhisattva?

[Risho]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

ooo totally off topic, but is there such thing as objective truth really? Bacon is only unhealthful depending on certain conditions and causes. For example, one's genetic makeup will probably determine what harmful (if any) effects bacon consumption would have on the body. Let's take diabetes as another good example of what we consider related to an objective truth. The idea that overeating leads to diabetes is false; that is qualified by genetic factors. If one is genetically pre-disposed to diabetes then that can contribute, however a blanket statement such as overeating, obesity, etc leads to diabetes or that bacon consumption is unhealthful is too broad of a brush.

OK I'm being argumentative, but is there such a thing as objective reality? How would you prove it? Everything is seen through a subjective lens in the end, isn't it?

Gassho,

RIsho

[alan.r]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Hi Risho. I said "Essentially, this is an objective truth" about bacon. Essentially. I said it's not the healthiest food choice. I can see, in certain instances, when bacon, as a foodstuff, might be a good choice, like, on occasion, or if you're really really hungry, or if someone, like, was having some diabetic thing and needed something.

Also, I'm not saying bacon is bad. I'm saying it's unhealthy, generally. I think we can all agree that bacon everyday (everyday!) for breakfast is not the best idea compared to, say, an orange and yogurt (greek, of course, without all the sugar). You think the statement: "bacon is not the healthiest food choice" is too broad a brush? Oh, I mean, really? It's probably more healthy than eating crisco, I'll give you that.

My entire point is that we can't do this same thing with spiritual practice. I mean, we can test bacon, tests probably have been done, studies about bacon, bacon studies, and while these aren't the be all end all truth about bacon, they're probably pretty reliable. Not so with spiritual practices.

I may be wrong, but as far as I can tell, Buddhism itself is concerned with objective truth, objective reality. We sometimes call this universal reality, or ultimate reality. Almost always this objective or ultimate reality is ungraspable and unattainable (because we are it) but just because you can't prove it (prove to me your correct Shikantaza) doesn't make it any less real. The subjective truth you're talking about, as far as I can tell, is a post-modernist view of reality, the little view, the personal, the ego. Although, Jundo or Taigu or anyone else, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Anyway, bacon has brought us a long way in this little discussion.

May we all be well and healthful and unattached except when we eat delicious bacon.

[alan.r]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Oh, and I meant to add, but forgot: I shouldn't have said "Essentially, this is an objective truth" about bacon. I should have said something like, "This is generally true or essentially the case" about bacon.

Anyway, the rest about objectivity and subjectivity and spiritual practice is where the heart of the thing beats.

[Risho]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

That is a good question. I always assumed Buddhism was an experiential, or mystical, tradition, i.e. A subjective practice. But I will leave that to Jundo and Taigu. . Anything that promotes discourse on bacon is good in my book. Lol

[Risho]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

The reason I thought subjective is that objective intimates a separation where Buddhism hinges on connection and interdependence.

[natezenmaster]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Alan,

I know exactly what you mean.. though as I see it, the Buddha tested out depravity and excess and found it lacking, provided us teaching, etc.. so even in spiritual matters there is a 'better' or preferred path. My 'nudge' is then based on teaching as i know it, my experience and best understanding .. like bacon, I have no evidence first hand to build an insurmountable case on whether it'll kill ya but to lean on bodies of evidence and teaching.. perhaps it is clearer and more falsifiable in the case of bacon than spiritual practice but maybe its still able to express my view.. I don't claim a concrete truth or to be right but to open ones view or perhaps my own in seeking to assist. best wishes, nate

[alan.r]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Hi again Risho. As I see it, while we are subjective beings, in this separate body and this separate ego and with our self-centered desires and aversions (ie, a small or subjective reality), we are also part of (not separate from) a universal or ultimate (ie, large, objective) reality as well, and it is our Shikantaza which is the realization or the embodiment of this Universal-ness. Thus, we are always working with the two which are not two. Also, I'm not certain about Soto Zen (I'm fairly new to it), but I know that other forms of Buddhism do believe that objective truth exists.

And hi Nate again. Yeah, that makes sense, the nudge based on your experience and understanding. Look forward to talking again.

[Risho]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Thanks Nate and Alan.

Alan,

I wasn't trying to be that provocative with the objectivity/subjectivity. I legitimately was wondering if objective reality was "believed" in in Buddhism just because I've heard about teachings where our consciousness creates our experience. Jundo sensei refers to this as the holodeck. . However I would assume there must be something that is stimulating our sense consciousness for us to create that world. Anyway... I'm getting more and more confused. hahahahaha

Thanks for your patience,

Risho

[alan.r]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Risho, no problem at all. I know of a talk by a monk from a Theravadin tradition which speaks of objective truth. It's short, about ten minutes. If I can find it, would you like the link? Also, his perspective isn't Zen, but I think, while Zen would probably, I don't know, scoff at talking about such things (can't be talked about!), is in agreement.

[Risho]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

that would be great. thank you

[alan.r]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Risho, just wanted to let you know I'm still trying to find the video. The monk has hundreds of them and I can't remember which one it was. AHHHHHHHH! Eventually.

[Risho]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Hey, no worries. Thank you for looking

[alan.r]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Hey Risho, I just sent you a pm. It contains a link to the video, but not the video I was thinking of. Still, it is a discussion of objective/subjective reality/truth, so it applies here. In any case, I didn't post the video here because the monk is not from the Soto Zen tradition, and I didn't want to create any confusion or unnecessary argument about ways of practicing or anything.

[Jundo]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Hey Risho, I just sent you a pm. It contains a link to the video, but not the video I was thinking of. Still, it is a discussion of objective/subjective reality/truth, so it applies here. In any case, I didn't post the video here because the monk is not from the Soto Zen tradition, and I didn't want to create any confusion or unnecessary argument about ways of practicing or anything.

Hi Alan,

Please send me the link too so I can take a look. Buddhism is just Buddhism, always the same ... although sometimes very different.

Gassho, Jundo

[alan.r]

Re: Run Away = Bodhisattva?

Hi Jundo, will do. Am doing.