False Teachings

[disastermouse]

What are they?

What I mean is this - Christianity is totally different than Buddhism in a lot of ways - so is Islam, Hinduism, and heck - many of the different paths in Buddhism are pretty radically different. And yet, especially when you hear Jundo talk about them, there's very little animosity. He doesn't say Pure Land - let alone Christianity - is 'wrong'...just that it's not our Soto way. This is good...heck, this is great!!!

I'm thinking about this because of a post on Brad's blog about Genpo Roshi....and I'm thinking about Hans and how much he probably agrees with it (if he's read it)...and how it is that many of us would agree with it. In fact, I feel this way, although not very energetically. And yet, in my head, I can't help thinking that the most deluded Buddhist teacher like Genpo is still more beneficial, more truth-serving, than any Christian teaching I've ever heard. So why am I so offended by Genpo and not as offended by Christianity? Is it because hitting a cul-de-sac so close to truth is more dangerous than those more obviously off-base? I mean, I think about Theism and how alien it seems to me as regards the actual state of things....but I can't get myself as worked up about it as I can about situations like Genpo's and I wonder why...

Chet

[Ryumon]

Re: False Teachings

I just glanced at the post in question. I think the thing that bothers you - and me as well - is the blatant commercialization of something that has traditionally been offered for free (donation accepted). Trademarking the infinite is certainly commercial, and I know that there has been a dispute in the yoga world in recent years about someone who tried to trademark or copyright asanas (yoga positions).

[disastermouse]

Re: False Teachings

I just glanced at the post in question. I think the thing that bothers you - and me as well - is the blatant commercialization of something that has traditionally been offered for free (donation accepted). Trademarking the infinite is certainly commercial, and I know that there has been a dispute in the yoga world in recent years about someone who tried to trademark or copyright asanas (yoga positions).

Commercialization (money surrounding it) doesn't bother me as much as commoditization (Zen as a thing you buy). Zen isn't something owned. I'm not offended because I think Zen is sacred, it really isn't (and yet is...blah) - it's because approaching it with any sort of attaining mentality just gives you a pretty new philosophy or 'cool shit I do that makes me interesting' sort of thing. Zen as a hobby. And the trappings of Zen ARE a hobby, the zafus, the accoutrements of the practice, the timers, hell - even the teachings and the collection of the teachings. But actual Shikantaza is a gift that releases you from that.

People seem to come to Zen for something and are disappointed when they don't find it. The lucky stick around to see what they actually do find, I think. Either way, it can't be sold. It doesn't really offend me when people try, but it makes me feel funny.

Chet

[Risho]

Re: False Teachings

I posted on Brad's blog as anonymous; I was too lazy to log in. Anyway this whole thing reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld where Jerry's girlfriend felt like she needed a mentor. Bottom line, you, I and most other rational huma beings know it's bs. But tgere is a sucker born every minute.

I mean look, it's like the housing crisis. We all want to point the finger, but it takes two to tango. I'm not excusing anyone for any thing, but if you are going to pay for something like "spiritual" status ypu may habe mental issues; I mean that literally, and I find it deplorable that a snake oil salesman would take advantage of disadvantaged people or you are just completely oblivious to reality. Well sometimes people make bad decisions to; I know I do.

Ps sorry for the typos; ipod typing. Lol

[Jundo]

Re: False Teachings

I am with folks here on everything, except for the part about Christianity being "wrong". It may be the right medicine for folks who need that medicine, and what we do may be very wrong for them.

And that is what I have to say, no charge. You get what you pay for.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: False Teachings

Today's Sit-a-Long is connected to this ...

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4478

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: False Teachings

I am with folks here on everything, except for the part about Christianity being "wrong". It may be the right medicine for folks who need that medicine, and what we do may be very wrong for them.

And that is what I have to say, no charge. You get what you pay for.

Gassho, J

Right Jundo - that's what I'm saying. Personally, I feel theism is off-base, but I think it's a meaningful way for others to think/feel. It doesn't irk me as much as Genpo's deal - even though I think, as screwed up as Genpo's thing is - it's still a lot closer to what I perceive as accurate or helpful. And that puzzles me.

Chet

[christopher:::]

Re: False Teachings

Hi all.

In regards to teachings, i kind of look at behavior and experience as being more important then beliefs. I don't care if people believe in Pink Elephant UFO goddesses watching over us. As long as its helping them to behave more compassionately and kindly, improves their relationships with others or is helping to reduce stress in their lives - it's then got positive qualities.

What tends to irk me more is not false teachings but wise teachings within the world's traditions that are ignored - like Jesus preaching about peace on earth, goodwill to all men/women, not killing others, practicing forgiveness and love - and then we have the endless parade of "Christian" leaders (and majority populations supporting them) who are willing to drop napalm and cluster bombs on people.

That's probably one of the greatest human tragedies, imo, when the wisdom we've been taught is ignored.

[RichardH]

Re: False Teachings

No tradition is free of folly. Sri Lankan Buddhism for instance is just as mired in a cluster bombing kind of nationalism as Christianity can be in the U.S. ... and needless to say Zen has a spotty history. As far as quality of practice goes, I would prefer an Eastern Orthodox contemplative retreat over a "Big Mind" Seminar, if that were the only choice.

I settled early on Buddhist practice because it just computed and felt right in the bones. Cant speak for anyone else.

[Omoi Otoshi]

False Teachings

A university student while visiting Gisan asked him: "Have you even read the Christian Bible?"
"No, read it to me," said Gisan.
The student opened the Bible and read from St. Matthew: "And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They toil not, neither do they spin, and yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these...Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself."
Gisan said: "Whoever uttered those words I consider an enlightened man."

[disastermouse]

Re: False Teachings

A university student while visiting Gisan asked him: "Have you even read the Christian Bible?"
"No, read it to me," said Gisan.
The student opened the Bible and read from St. Matthew: "And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They toil not, neither do they spin, and yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these...Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself."
Gisan said: "Whoever uttered those words I consider an enlightened man."

Hey, that's great....do you believe he resurrected or that merely by believing in him you'll be reborn in a paradise? Or in a literal god at all?

I mean yeah - peace, pot, and microdot and all that, but have to go out of your way to find similarities between Christianity and Zen.

Chet

[Jiki22]

Re: False Teachings

each religion is changing in time
with each master/pope/shaman... there will be change (big or little)
because of his own experience, his own view of things,
everything is impermanent.

It's you that make you're own way,
the rest is just a guide,
from incorrect teaching you can learn to see it correct,
but what is right or wrong, correct or incorrect
maybe wrong can be right to gain the right experience
and virsa versa

this counts for Buddhism, Catholic, Islam etc

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: False Teachings

Chet,
I personally don't believe in a literal god (but how do you define god?) and I personally doubt that the historical Jesus was resurrected, as described in the bible. But who am I to judge? I don't believe everything I read about Buddha either. But I do believe that wisdom is universal. I'm sure there are many passages in the holy texts of Buddhism and Christianity that are similar in their message, but I feel no need to "go out of my way" to find them. I'm sure someone already has. Zen flesh, zen bones was my first book on Zen and I still find this story and the passage from St Matthew fascinating, which is why I wanted to share it. For me, the bible is a book, compiled in a different time and culture, by a large number of persons over a long period, with parts probably left out or altered, because the message didn't suit a certain time or a certain ruler. I have never read the whole bible. When I do, I will do my best not to read it literally, just like I wouldn't read a Sutra literally, but more like a poem, to try to decipher what wisdom it may contain. As others have already said, different paths for different people.

/Pontus

[disastermouse]

Re: False Teachings

Chet,
I personally don't believe in a literal god (but how do you define god?) and I personally doubt that the historical Jesus was resurrected, as described in the bible. But who am I to judge?

A thoughtful, modern person. That's who you are to judge.

I don't believe everything I read about Buddha either. But I do believe that wisdom is universal. I'm sure there are many passages in the holy texts of Buddhism and Christianity that are similar in their message, but I feel no need to "go out of my way" to find them. I'm sure someone already has. Zen flesh, zen bones was my first book on Zen and I still find this story and the passage from St Matthew fascinating, which is why I wanted to share it. For me, the bible is a book, compiled in a different time and culture, by a large number of persons over a long period, with parts probably left out or altered, because the message didn't suit a certain time or a certain ruler. I have never read the whole bible. When I do, I will do my best not to read it literally, just like I wouldn't read a Sutra literally, but more like a poem, to try to decipher what wisdom it may contain. As others have already said, different paths for different people.

/Pontus

Right, exactly...different paths for different people - but we're more offended by a path that's closer to ours, but different enough to feel like a distortion of our actual path. Or so it seems.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: False Teachings

we're more offended by a path that's closer to ours, but different enough to feel like a distortion of our actual path. Or so it seems.

I have no dog in this fight with Genpo, but Chet's quote above led to this mind flash: Don't we often get most upset by the people most like us? It's easy to ignore the people way different from us for the very reason that they are so different. But when someone acts like us that tends to set us off sometimes. For example, maybe you were really irritated by someone and then someone else had to point out that you and the other were so alike. The flip side of that is opposites attract. Anyway, maybe it would be helpful to consider how alike you are with Genpo rather than how you differ with him.

Just a thought.
Carry on...