False Teachings

[RichardH]

Re: False Teachings

I don't have grudge against Genpo. He is probably a good enough guy doing his best. I also don't want to get on a moral high horse about this kind of thing. But I do have sensibilities, sensibilities around the Dharma, and these can be offended. That video made me squirm. Typing this now, it is on my mind, but when I log off and go back to work, there will just be cleaning the studio, and drawing up a canvas.

I'm grateful for the integrity (as I understand the term) of the teachers I know, and here on this online Sangha. hands palm to palm.

[Heisoku]

Re: False Teachings

Couldn't agree more Kojip.
Sometimes simple ideas are just carried away and transformed into something else by the sheer numbers of people making creative inputs, which is part of the process with anything that is 'produced'.
The balance at Treeleaf is wonderful...gassho to that!

[Risho]

Re: False Teachings

That's a good point Pontus. We should definitely not place "masters" on pedestals. I'm pretty reticent to deem someone a "master", and I often remind myself that we are all indeed human. Usually when we imagine someone as this perfect Buddha, it's just our imagination.

Gassho,

Risho

[Nenka]

Re: False Teachings

I sat through the audition video. :? Actually, the comments were interesting. Assuming they are genuine, a lot of people seem to really be getting something out of this Big Mind (TM) stuff. I don't know, I just hope people do a basic Google search before opening their wallets. All sides of this Genpo thing are available--I think Brad expressed his side really well--and people can make their own decisions. It doesn't really affect my practice, as a wise person in this sangha once said about some other controversy.

Gassho

Jen

[Ryumon]

Re: False Teachings

It's actually very simple: all teachings are false.

[disastermouse]

Re: False Teachings

It's actually very simple: all teachings are false.

:/ Smartassery runs amok.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: False Teachings

I don't think that teachers - even though they may have massive flaws, should stand aside just because tey don't uphold the precepts to the same perfection as another teacher. We start from different places and it's often those that start from much more humble and confused beginnings that have more to teach.

In no way am I trying to offend here - but Taigu comes from a very screwed up background, and the after effects of that show up in his sometimes snarkiness, blunt put downs, and expressions of frustration. However, I suspect that his practice has vastly improved his struggle with such things. So I don't care if sometimes he's not exactly kind. This is a bad example since he's hardly an example of a Zen teacher 'behaving badly'. But his rough edges are there and will likely remain. Yet, especially for me, his teaching is often helpful because I share some of those rough edges.

If I found a paragon of the precepts who couldn't reach me, what use would that be? It would be funny if I was to cry for his removal due to his lack of ability - but then exactly what that ability IS that the teacher is lacking isharder to define than that of the teacher who struggles with the precepts more and perhaps loses a fair amount of the time.

Chet

[Ryumon]

Re: False Teachings

It's actually very simple: all teachings are false.

:/ Smartassery runs amok.

Yea, I couldn't resist. This said, in the broader scheme of things, I would guess that I'm not totally off the mark... :-)

[Ryumon]

Re: False Teachings

I don't think that teachers - even though they may have massive flaws, should stand aside just because tey don't uphold the precepts to the same perfection as another teacher. We start from different places and it's often those that start from much more humble and confused beginnings that have more to teach.



If I found a paragon of the precepts who couldn't reach me, what use would that be? It would be funny if I was to cry for his removal due to his lack of ability - but then exactly what that ability IS that the teacher is lacking isharder to define than that of the teacher who struggles with the precepts more and perhaps loses a fair amount of the time.

But where do you draw the line? Certain well-known teachers - take Chogyam Trungpa, for example - are now known to have acted in ways that are very opposite not just the precepts, but basic moral mores. There have been many examples of "spiritual" teachers taking advantage of students, either financially or sexually. Yet Trungpa's teachings - at least what's in print - are quite profound, and this is the case of others as well.

I strongly disagree with the "since they're zen (or any other tradition) masters, their behavior must be excused" idea. But how do you judge? I think any teacher must respect a) the precepts of his or her tradition, and b) the mores of the society in which he or she lives. I don't think you can exclude the latter just because one is from a specific tradition.

[disastermouse]

Re: False Teachings

I don't think that teachers - even though they may have massive flaws, should stand aside just because tey don't uphold the precepts to the same perfection as another teacher. We start from different places and it's often those that start from much more humble and confused beginnings that have more to teach.



If I found a paragon of the precepts who couldn't reach me, what use would that be? It would be funny if I was to cry for his removal due to his lack of ability - but then exactly what that ability IS that the teacher is lacking isharder to define than that of the teacher who struggles with the precepts more and perhaps loses a fair amount of the time.

But where do you draw the line? Certain well-known teachers - take Chogyam Trungpa, for example - are now known to have acted in ways that are very opposite not just the precepts, but basic moral mores. There have been many examples of "spiritual" teachers taking advantage of students, either financially or sexually. Yet Trungpa's teachings - at least what's in print - are quite profound, and this is the case of others as well.

I strongly disagree with the "since they're zen (or any other tradition) masters, their behavior must be excused" idea. But how do you judge? I think any teacher must respect a) the precepts of his or her tradition, and b) the mores of the society in which he or she lives. I don't think you can exclude the latter just because one is from a specific tradition.

The line is for each of us to draw, but if we're looking for perfect teachers, we'll be looking a long time.

Chet

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: False Teachings

Taigu comes from a very screwed up background, and the after effects of that show up in his sometimes snarkiness, blunt put downs, and expressions of frustration. However, I suspect that his practice has vastly improved his struggle with such things. So I don't care if sometimes he's not exactly kind. This is a bad example since he's hardly an example of a Zen teacher 'behaving badly'. But his rough edges are there and will likely remain. Yet, especially for me, his teaching is often helpful because I share some of those rough edges.

Hmm... I don't feel it's appropriate to discuss someone's personality in negative terms on an open internetforum, unless they have asked for it. I know there have been discussions about your own personality in the past Chet, but in most cases I believe you were the one who intiated those discussions?

Rev Taigu's teacher, Mike Chudo Cross, believes strongly in the mirror principle. Do you?
According to the mirror principle, your life is a perfect mirror image of what's in your consciousness. Or so I have understood it. When you see something you don't like in someone else, it is reflecting something in yourself that you don't like, sometimes without you being aware of it. When you can see those negative aspects in yourself and accept them for what they are, maybe you can free yourself from them and no longer see them as strongly in others. Maybe you need a teacher like Taigu to see and and polish away those rough edges in yourself?

/Pontus

[Ryumon]

Re: False Teachings

I don't think that teachers - even though they may have massive flaws, should stand aside just because tey don't uphold the precepts to the same perfection as another teacher. We start from different places and it's often those that start from much more humble and confused beginnings that have more to teach.



If I found a paragon of the precepts who couldn't reach me, what use would that be? It would be funny if I was to cry for his removal due to his lack of ability - but then exactly what that ability IS that the teacher is lacking isharder to define than that of the teacher who struggles with the precepts more and perhaps loses a fair amount of the time.

But where do you draw the line? Certain well-known teachers - take Chogyam Trungpa, for example - are now known to have acted in ways that are very opposite not just the precepts, but basic moral mores. There have been many examples of "spiritual" teachers taking advantage of students, either financially or sexually. Yet Trungpa's teachings - at least what's in print - are quite profound, and this is the case of others as well.

I strongly disagree with the "since they're zen (or any other tradition) masters, their behavior must be excused" idea. But how do you judge? I think any teacher must respect a) the precepts of his or her tradition, and b) the mores of the society in which he or she lives. I don't think you can exclude the latter just because one is from a specific tradition.

The line is for each of us to draw, but if we're looking for perfect teachers, we'll be looking a long time.

You're assuming, then, that each person is able to judge where to draw that line, and that no one is psychologically unable to do so? Because that's not how things work in the real world.

I don't think anyone expects perfection, but my point is, there are faults that are way too serious to accept. (IMHO)

[disastermouse]

Re: False Teachings

Taigu comes from a very screwed up background, and the after effects of that show up in his sometimes snarkiness, blunt put downs, and expressions of frustration. However, I suspect that his practice has vastly improved his struggle with such things. So I don't care if sometimes he's not exactly kind. This is a bad example since he's hardly an example of a Zen teacher 'behaving badly'. But his rough edges are there and will likely remain. Yet, especially for me, his teaching is often helpful because I share some of those rough edges.

Hmm... I don't feel it's appropriate to discuss someone's personality in negative terms on an open internetforum, unless they have asked for it. I know there have been discussions about your own personality in the past Chet, but in most cases I believe you were the one who intiated those discussions?

Rev Taigu's teacher, Mike Chudo Cross, believes strongly in the mirror principle. Do you?
According to the mirror principle, your life is a perfect mirror image of what's in your consciousness. Or so I have understood it. When you see something you don't like in someone else, it is reflecting something in yourself that you don't like, sometimes without you being aware of it. When you can see those negative aspects in yourself and accept them for what they are, maybe you can free yourself from them and no longer see them as strongly in others. Maybe you need a teacher like Taigu to see and and polish away those rough edges in yourself?

/Pontus

I actually DO like what I see in Taigu - I was hoping that would be reflected in my post. I LIKE his rough edges, I LIKE the fact that he's had to deal with some pretty awful things and has pretty much overcome them. That was my whole point! Some people might point to them and poo-poo his ability as a teacher, and that was my whole point. He's not always nice, but he is who he is and some of the things he says really connect with me. Some of it is skillful means, but some of it might not be - it might be a manifestation of stuff he's got to work with - and I like BOTH of those things.

I hope Taigu realizes that I wasn't intentionally dissing him. I respect his teaching style very much, actually.

Gassho

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: False Teachings

You're assuming, then, that each person is able to judge where to draw that line, and that no one is psychologically unable to do so? Because that's not how things work in the real world.

I don't think anyone expects perfection, but my point is, there are faults that are way too serious to accept. (IMHO)

I think that even if we lack the tools, ultimately it's only our own tools that we can use to draw those lines. There are certainly things that I wouldn't tolerate - and I think that Jundo sets up some pretty good guidelines for appropriate teacher behavior - but he ALSO excepts those rough edges in people.

Chet

[Hoyu]

Re: False Teachings

Kojip wrote:
There is also some absurd Buddhist practice. ...a war over the Buddha's tooth anyone? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic_of_t ... the_Buddha

Ha!