A few thoughts about recurring threads

[disastermouse]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I'm surprised so many people don't seem to realize where I'm going with this - I can only assume that I haven't been very clear. Sorry about that!

My thoughts aren't really about those particular topics, but rather how certain recognizable patterns come up around those topics...certain log jams about these particular issues just keep coming up. Why do we have log jams here? What is it about these topics that seems to bring out a more combative set of voices? Why do we plant our flags here and battle for a point of view?

Chet

Why is it important to put up a red flag about log jams and planting flags?

Next week in my trip to Canton (Guangzhou) China, I will be visiting the temple where this story actually is said to occur. A debate about flags ...

Huineng went to Fa-hsin Temple in Canton. He entered the temple and found two monks disputing a waving flag. The following exchange in recorded in the koan collection The Mumonkan, case 29:

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, "The flag moves." The other said, "The wind moves." They argued back and forth but could not agree.

The Sixth Ancestor said, "Gentlemen! It is not the wind that moves; it is not the flag that moves; it is your mind that moves." The two monks were struck with awe.

Gassho, Jundo

You disappoint me, Jundo. You don't think there's any point to considering why certain topics foster messed up group dynamics?

I dunno...do you LIKE being the kindergarten cop? I'd never considered that possibility. With Brad, I can see how this could be the case, but I thought you were aiming....different. Maybe you're just having a bad day.

Chet

That last thing was unfair. I'll let it stand because I DID post it, but it was unfair.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Heya Chet,

Before I get started, I wanted to ask if you were completely healed up from your accident.

There's the immediate problem of access to knowledge of externals. That is to say, the 'myth of the given'. External 'reality' is accessed only through subjective and inter-subjective processes. This doesn't explain why I'm in the rebirth camp, but it might explain my aversion to scientific materialism.

I do agree with you here and have made similar arguments in the past. The reductionist model of mind works perfectly for what it is used for, but problems arise when the model is taken as reality itself or pieced in to another model. This is the problem I see with "scientific materialism"- the confusion of the ever-changing model with an objective reality. With that said, we shouldn't take the other extreme and lean toward spiritualism either.

You have teased me though, why are you in the "rebirth camp"? (I didn't really know there were camps)

Yeah, eternalism is a pitfall as well. If I can't find anything that that carries from moment to moment, what merit is there to the idea of something eternal that moves from life to life?

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

You disappoint me, Jundo. You don't think there's any point to considering why certain topics foster messed up group dynamics?

Hi Chet,

I simply do not believe that we are having any much "mess" with group dynamics around here, including with regard to the important topics you listed. Folks tend to have very civil and solid talks on those subjects, filled with much insight and wisdom and real life experience.

In fact, your making this thread to say there is a "mess" created the issue where there is not much of one. Seemed to me a little that you were away for many weeks, then suddenly wanted to "stir up" something a bit? Am I wrong? Over the years, you have done that.

Gassho, J

[ghop]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Then I hope that we can get back to the main topics:

Lady Gaga's views on Rebirth.

Korean cooking as Interdependent Co-Arising.

Any comments and insights? :P

Well, according to Lady Gaga's latest song, (i don't listen to her, my wife does ops: ) she is "On The Edge Of Glory." So maybe she is the next Buddha?? Either way, I really wish she would put some clothes on and be quiet.

As to Korean food and Interdependent Co-Arising, I don't know much about theory, but when I eat Korean food something does indeed arise, hemorrhoids. Ouch! Talk about faith in action :mrgreen:

Motion generates stillness, stillness radiates into motion.

gassho gassho gassho

gassho
Greg

[chicanobudista]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

As people float in and out of here, I see a few repeating themes come up that I thought we might discuss. Feel free to add and comment.

Vegetarianism vs omnivorism:
Rebirth:
Challenge the teacher!
I NEED an answer!!/Just sit!

Not trying to question the original intent of this thread, but....these repeating themes keep recurring because they are part and parcel of Buddhist thought/beliefs/etc. Some of these were even present at the time of the Buddha (Rebirth for example) or at the "foundation" of what we call Ch'an. Even if we step away from the historical context, visit any Buddhist forum and there they are. These themes not appearing on a Zen Buddhist forum is like the theme of the designated hitter not appearing in a baseball forum. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Heck, I would be surprised if these themes did *not* appear!

[chicanobudista]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

As people float in and out of here, I see a few repeating themes come up that I thought we might discuss. Feel free to add and comment.

Vegetarianism vs omnivorism:
Rebirth:
Challenge the teacher!
I NEED an answer!!/Just sit!

Not trying to question the original intent of this thread, but....these repeating themes keep recurring because they are part and parcel of Buddhist thought/beliefs/etc. Some of these were even present at the time of the Buddha (Rebirth for example) or at the "foundation" of what we call Ch'an. Even if we step away from the historical context, visit any Buddhist forum and there they are. These themes not appearing on a Zen Buddhist forum is like the theme of the designated hitter not appearing in a baseball forum would be out of the norm. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Heck, I would be surprised if these themes did *not* appear!

[disastermouse]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

You disappoint me, Jundo. You don't think there's any point to considering why certain topics foster messed up group dynamics?

Hi Chet,

I simply do not believe that we are having any much "mess" with group dynamics around here, including with regard to the important topics you listed. Folks tend to have very civil and solid talks on those subjects, filled with much insight and wisdom and real life experience.

In fact, your making this thread to say there is a "mess" created the issue where there is not much of one. Seemed to me a little that you were away for many weeks, then suddenly wanted to "stir up" something a bit? Am I wrong? Over the years, you have done that.

Gassho, J

Hmmm,

Sorry that you think of me that way.

I haven't so much been away from Trealeaf as I've just been away from my practice in general. As I've started to come back to it, I'm back at the sangha.

I never said it was a 'mess' - it's just....I think it's part of what causes so much criticism of an online sangha - although I think these log jams come up in 'non-line' sanghas as well. We can be so mean and petty to one another. I personally have at times placed far more importance on being seen as insightful or intelligent - or on trying to sway someone to my way of seeing things - than on getting to the heart of the matter.

Part of it's likely personal for me as well. The arguments themselves don't much interest me....but the dynamic behind the way the arguments play out - something in it speaks to me about the causes of suffering. How much of these arguments has more to do with 'self' preservation than getting at the heart of things? Why do we do that? Should we stop? Can we stop?

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I think I've just been thinking about conflict and drama a lot lately...I started a possible novel at the beginning of the month where most human conflict had ended...it was very difficult to write! Something in us perpetuates conflict and drama. We want what we don't have or we feel like we have to defend our positions - and sometimes our positions don't even come from ourselves! They're just things we absorb and come to identify with.

I mean - I've been gone for a while but....for instance, the commercialization of Zen is something that really pisses off Hans. It REALLY gets under his skin in a way it doesn't for most of us. I really seem to oppose scientific materialism. The reduction of internal experiences to external processes without remainder really triggers something in me. Why??

Why do we fight? What is the infernal hiccup that causes us to keep doing this shit to ourselves and others again and again and again and again and again and....?

Chet

[Risho]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Right on with that one. I can be very argumentative. Taking a stand can sometimes reify an idea of a separate self. I feel that anyhow and interestingly I think that is a lesson from this week's precept: putting others down while raising ourselves.

It is very tiring but I catch myself doing it habitually.

[Ryumon]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I think I've just been thinking about conflict and drama a lot lately...I started a possible novel at the beginning of the month where most human conflict had ended...it was very difficult to write! Something in us perpetuates conflict and drama. We want what we don't have or we feel like we have to defend our positions - and sometimes our positions don't even come from ourselves! They're just things we absorb and come to identify with.

I mean - I've been gone for a while but....for instance, the commercialization of Zen is something that really pisses off Hans. It REALLY gets under his skin in a way it doesn't for most of us. I really seem to oppose scientific materialism. The reduction of internal experiences to external processes without remainder really triggers something in me. Why??

Why do we fight? What is the infernal hiccup that causes us to keep doing this shit to ourselves and others again and again and again and again and again and....?

Chet

First of all, conflict doesn't have to be negative. Conflict can be problems to resolve; it doesn't have to be people who fight and disagree.

On your second point, I've been in some of the threads where you argue butt-headedly. In my opinion, people who argue like that are convinced that they are right, and allow no possibility that they may be wrong, but feel so right that they get insulted if anyone questions them. I've found that I learn a lot more from understanding other people's opinions than from fighting for my own.

[disastermouse]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I think I've just been thinking about conflict and drama a lot lately...I started a possible novel at the beginning of the month where most human conflict had ended...it was very difficult to write! Something in us perpetuates conflict and drama. We want what we don't have or we feel like we have to defend our positions - and sometimes our positions don't even come from ourselves! They're just things we absorb and come to identify with.

I mean - I've been gone for a while but....for instance, the commercialization of Zen is something that really pisses off Hans. It REALLY gets under his skin in a way it doesn't for most of us. I really seem to oppose scientific materialism. The reduction of internal experiences to external processes without remainder really triggers something in me. Why??

Why do we fight? What is the infernal hiccup that causes us to keep doing this shit to ourselves and others again and again and again and again and again and....?

Chet

First of all, conflict doesn't have to be negative. Conflict can be problems to resolve; it doesn't have to be people who fight and disagree.

On your second point, I've been in some of the threads where you argue butt-headedly. In my opinion, people who argue like that are convinced that they are right, and allow no possibility that they may be wrong, but feel so right that they get insulted if anyone questions them. I've found that I learn a lot more from understanding other people's opinions than from fighting for my own.

This is kind of what I'm talking about. You've seen me argue butt-headedly? What good is that? Better if you see yourself argue butt-headedly, no?

We all argue like that sometimes, but I'm not just talking about that.

Chet