A few thoughts about recurring threads

[Jundo]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I do not know why Chet decided to raise so many topics in a single thread ... because any discussion of so many separate themes at once becomes difficult. I would ask folks to take discussion on vegetarianism, rebirth, Sangha policy and "Just Sit" Shikantaza to threads on those topics, and not discuss them all at once here! :shock:

Chet, next time, how about starting a thread on the subject of "Korean cooking, football, global warming and Lady Gaga"? :twisted:

However, I am going to yell a few things here ...

1 - IT IS GOOD TO RETURN TO 'THE BASICS' even if sitting for years and lifetimes. Thus, I think it wonderful that 'New Folks' keep bringing up basic matters ... for we are all always beginners. What is more ... folks always want more more more, new new new intellectual stimulation. Instead, in Buddhist practice ... it is often good to go deeply and profoundly into same old, same old, same old. (That is one reason that so many of my Dharma Talks, year in year out, touch on basic themes again and again.).

2 - SOME 'BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY' IS NECESSARY FOR ZEN PRACTICE ... NOT TOO MUCH. Both intellectual and "put into practice" familiarity with many basic teachings ... such as the 'Four Noble Truths', Impermanence, Non-Self, Emptiness and other examples (all discussed around our Sangha day in and day out) ... are needed in order to give form and direction to Zen Practice. However, not too much philosophizing, and the the teachings must be put into practice (not just talked about). To offer a silly example, today I took my son bowling ... a sport that requires some (not very much at all) familiarity with the general rules, score keeping, strategy, balls, finger holes, shoes and pin setting machines. If one, however, spends all one's times discussing and debating "the best shoes" or "how to grip the ball" without getting out there and actually shooting ... one is not bowling! One does not need too much extra detail, which may actually distract from the heart of the game. Same with Zen Practice. 8)

3 - BUDDHA IS "SHIT IN PANTS". Yes indeed! A piercing of that Truth is as necessary as an understanding of "Interdependent Co-Arising". Both are vital, both are one.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - I will address this one point ... about Brad's video on "reincarnation". I am with Brad on most of what he says there, but I do not think the comments about Dogen are complete. In many of his writings, Dogen shows himself pretty traditional on matters of Karma and Rebirth. Like many Zen Masters, Dogen says that we can be freed from that through our Practice. Dogen also made some distinction, apparently, between "rebirth" and "reincarnation" as many Buddhists do.

For more on Rebirth and Karma, please see these threads ...

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1281

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1429

[Jundo]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I want to take a rare step ... maybe one of the few times I have ever done this ... of locking this thread. I will take a leaf from Matsuoka Roshi and say there is too much babble ... on the subject of babble. 40 whacks.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

But I decided not to lock the topic cause we so rarely do that around here. However, I challenge everyone to discuss these things without getting lost in words and tangles of ideas. Silence is also good discussion on many such questions.

Gassho, Jundo

[RichardH]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Vegetarianism vs omnivorism ..... Dietary self-control comes and goes... depends. Can't speak for others.

Rebirth ....... All the time. ..doh.! ... born again.

Challenge the teacher! ......teachers bug me sometimes, I imagine I bug them too, but mostly I bug myself. Sometimes I imagine teachers snickering at me, ....sometimes I imagine them thinking I'm a special Enlightened case. There seems to be no limit to silliness in this head.. In this head.

I NEED an answer!!/Just sit! ........ No question, no answer. At once.

[ghop]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

So I re-read my post and it seems kinda crass. Sorry. It all sounded such much better in my head.

I do think thinking leads to more thinking, never to enlightenment. I can't name anyone who ever arrived at the truth by thinking about it. Even Buddha dropped all thought and sat under a tree...and realized.

But we should study, of course. Maybe our own enlightenment is built upon the wisdom of those who woke up before us. I just meant that at some point we transcend our own beliefs. To me, this is what the path is all about. Filling the cup, emptying the cup. Not even the greatest teaching of Shakyamuni has the power to liberate a human being, as a set of thoughts/beliefs.

If I eat meat, it is Buddha eating meat. If I am reincarnated, it is Buddha being reborn. If I poop my pants, it is Buddha's underwear. That's all I mean. Transcendence. All thought is in the field of ignorance. The truth is something else (not that thoughts aren't truth too though). We think, it's present. We are silent, it's present. We win the lottery, it's present. We get diagnosed with cancer, it's present. It's beyond the beyond. Where does enlightenment begin, in the zafu or in the butt?

There I go again. If I knew anything, would I be talking?

gassho
Greg

[Keishin]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I am glad this locked thread was unlocked

I didn't want to start a new thread with the title 'for the record: this comment belongs to the thread " A Few Thoughts About Recurring Threads"'

For the record I wanted to say that I never was under the impression that Matsuoka roshi ever considered discussion to be 'babble'. I can't speak for him and speculation is, well...speculation.
I reported the sign posted in the hall. This was my first real life zendo, my first real life zen teacher.
I was a know nothing, it seems I was comfortable (enough) with not knowing.
I do not think speculating about Matsuoka Roshi's hallway sign is helpful. I do think reporting this sign in the hallway might be helpful. It was and is to me. I don't speculate on it, I just report it. To speculate on it is to push it pull it lop part of it off or graft something on it.
I leave his words as his words. I leave them in their context.
What is the size, the shape of the impression of these words on me? Two and a half decades later there they are.
And I also reported a zen priest ordained by Matsuoka: Rev. Bob McNeil whose nature was different held (still holds) Buddha cafe discussions sometimes lasting hours: the fire's sparks flying up to join the night's stars.

My remarks were not meant to disparage silence or disparage discussion.
One is not more valuable than another.
Both of these teachers of mine: Matsuoka Roshi and his dharma son Rev. Bob McNeil each with their different personalities...serving, serving it up, big steaming ladles of dharma.

[Jundo]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Then hear my words if not Matsuoka Roshi's. Jundo says ...

' no talking, no lingering, no discussion'

Is that so?' 'We'll see.' ''I don't know' and 'Thank you.'

There is a time for discussion. We sure have enough of that around this Forum.

But there are also certain threads, once in awhile, that end up in mental wheel spinning, shit shooting, fiddle faddle and arm chair philosophizing. This is one of them, and the reason I wished to close this thread.

Truly, GO JUST SIT ... SIT DOWN, SIT QUIET! SIT NOW!

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Then I hope that we can get back to the main topics:

Lady Gaga's views on Rebirth.

Korean cooking as Interdependent Co-Arising.

Any comments and insights? :P

Gassho, J

[Rev R]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Lady Gaga's views on Rebirth.

Whatever gets her the most press coverage and record sales. [/cynicism]

[disastermouse]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I'm surprised so many people don't seem to realize where I'm going with this - I can only assume that I haven't been very clear. Sorry about that!

My thoughts aren't really about those particular topics, but rather how certain recognizable patterns come up around those topics...certain log jams about these particular issues just keep coming up. Why do we have log jams here? What is it about these topics that seems to bring out a more combative set of voices? Why do we plant our flags here and battle for a point of view?

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I'm surprised so many people don't seem to realize where I'm going with this - I can only assume that I haven't been very clear. Sorry about that!

My thoughts aren't really about those particular topics, but rather how certain recognizable patterns come up around those topics...certain log jams about these particular issues just keep coming up. Why do we have log jams here? What is it about these topics that seems to bring out a more combative set of voices? Why do we plant our flags here and battle for a point of view?

Chet

Why is it important to put up a red flag about log jams and planting flags?

Next week in my trip to Canton (Guangzhou) China, I will be visiting the temple where this story actually is said to occur. A debate about flags ...

Huineng went to Fa-hsin Temple in Canton. He entered the temple and found two monks disputing a waving flag. The following exchange in recorded in the koan collection The Mumonkan, case 29:

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, "The flag moves." The other said, "The wind moves." They argued back and forth but could not agree.

The Sixth Ancestor said, "Gentlemen! It is not the wind that moves; it is not the flag that moves; it is your mind that moves." The two monks were struck with awe.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jiki22]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

questions make more questions
answers make more questions and answers
it spins endless around

the wheel of dharma does not spin
it stand still at this very moment
and clears the mist around everything
no more questions and no more answers
just sit

[Taigu]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Hi Jiki,

You write:

the wheel of dharma does not spin
it stand still at this very moment

No way. It spins a big deal. Full of life and a dynamic spin.
The very centre is still but the wheel moves.
Motion generates stillness, stillness radiates into motion.

Gassho

Taigu

[Jiki22]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Hi Taigu

with much respect,

an motion is in complete stop in the moment of a clear view
and continue his spin afterwards like it's has to spin
even if it spins faster than my eyes can see

that is the way i see it
maybe i did not write it correctly


Gassho

[disastermouse]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I'm surprised so many people don't seem to realize where I'm going with this - I can only assume that I haven't been very clear. Sorry about that!

My thoughts aren't really about those particular topics, but rather how certain recognizable patterns come up around those topics...certain log jams about these particular issues just keep coming up. Why do we have log jams here? What is it about these topics that seems to bring out a more combative set of voices? Why do we plant our flags here and battle for a point of view?

Chet

Why is it important to put up a red flag about log jams and planting flags?

Next week in my trip to Canton (Guangzhou) China, I will be visiting the temple where this story actually is said to occur. A debate about flags ...

Huineng went to Fa-hsin Temple in Canton. He entered the temple and found two monks disputing a waving flag. The following exchange in recorded in the koan collection The Mumonkan, case 29:

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, "The flag moves." The other said, "The wind moves." They argued back and forth but could not agree.

The Sixth Ancestor said, "Gentlemen! It is not the wind that moves; it is not the flag that moves; it is your mind that moves." The two monks were struck with awe.

Gassho, Jundo

You disappoint me, Jundo. You don't think there's any point to considering why certain topics foster messed up group dynamics?

I dunno...do you LIKE being the kindergarten cop? I'd never considered that possibility. With Brad, I can see how this could be the case, but I thought you were aiming....different. Maybe you're just having a bad day.

Chet