A few thoughts about recurring threads

[Shohei]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I think we should maybe add a new topic called BASHING THE TEACHERS. It would be really useful especially for days when I need to vent. :mrgreen:

Gassho,

Risho

P.S. I'm in a very sarcastic mood by the way, and I have a devious sense of humor, so no hate mail from any of you's. hahahhaha :mrgreen:

oooh yeah of course

/me deletes 4 hour rant...


:twisted:

Gassho
Shohei

[disastermouse]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Oh, and by the way ...

"Just Sit" is a Total, Complete and Thorough Answer to All Things, Leaving No Doubt Unresolved ... I kid you not ...

... even though it may not be the answer to all one's little questions and all life's mysteries, nor the fixer of all problems. Zazen is useless ... and won't even fix a flat tire or tell you what to have for lunch. 8)

Funny how that works.


Gassho, J

I'm not saying it's a bad answer - not at all - I'm saying that without a more thorough understanding of Shikantaza and our Treeleaf practice, a relative newcomer may hear the admonition without really hearing it and also without examining the motivation for the question. Also, when a teacher says 'Just sit' it can be good advice. When we all start parroting it because we've heard the teacher say it, maybe it doesn't help so much for the person parroting it.

Also, my point wasn't that we shouldn't have these conversations. These are perfectly good conversations and debates. What I'm saying is that if we look at our reactions to the conversations - the recurring and sometimes cantankerous ones - well, we may learn more from that than the actual debates!

These are just thoughts. No offense or engagement in the mentioned debates was necessarily intended.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Chet,

right up until I see the argument that mind=brain

Well we can start right there. Unless you have seen something I haven't, the only direct reference to this debate is your claim that they are not. If you want to discuss this particular aspect, we can start a new thread and see where it goes. The only thing I recommend remembering is that it should be taken for fun rather than an opportunity to shove a right view down someone's throat. Deal?

an ancient Eastern "42" that magically solves all problems.

My reading of St. Douglass was that "42" actually created more problems than it solved.

R

There's the immediate problem of access to knowledge of externals. That is to say, the 'myth of the given'. External 'reality' is accessed only through subjective and inter-subjective processes. This doesn't explain why I'm in the rebirth camp, but it might explain my aversion to scientific materialism.

Chet

[Rev R]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I think we should maybe add a new topic called BASHING THE TEACHERS.

Just remember that it is only fair for the teachers to bash right back. (and they have sticks and fly swatters)

[AlanLa]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Just to be clear, the dharma here has not gone stale. It is forever fresh, for how can the dharma be otherwise? I just seek other springs these days. It can be good to taste different waters sometimes. I know J and T agree.

I kind of envision myself like Will, as you old-timers may recall, a guy that shows up once in a while with a point, though I try to be less obtuse. (Sorry, Will).

The dharma remains the same, and peoples' slow discovery of it follows similar paths, yet everyones' story is unique, and this wonderful place provides a great Path for those stories. But my struggle with those familiar stories is my struggle with the Path.

I am forever grateful for having this place of sharing, and I will continue to share my Path when it seems worthwhile or I feel the need. There are better teachers here than me, as ordinations make clear. Listen to them while allowing my occasional pokes, please.

[RichardH]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Hi. If I may say, what else is a Buddhist forum but reoccurring threads? For folks new to the Buddhadharma the subjects are new, and for those who have an established practice there probably isn't anything here that hasn't been heard before, in one form or another. I am a new person to this forum, and did not come here to find a novel post . I came for Sangha, and to share practice.

[Rev R]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Heya Chet,

Before I get started, I wanted to ask if you were completely healed up from your accident.

There's the immediate problem of access to knowledge of externals. That is to say, the 'myth of the given'. External 'reality' is accessed only through subjective and inter-subjective processes. This doesn't explain why I'm in the rebirth camp, but it might explain my aversion to scientific materialism.

I do agree with you here and have made similar arguments in the past. The reductionist model of mind works perfectly for what it is used for, but problems arise when the model is taken as reality itself or pieced in to another model. This is the problem I see with "scientific materialism"- the confusion of the ever-changing model with an objective reality. With that said, we shouldn't take the other extreme and lean toward spiritualism either.

You have teased me though, why are you in the "rebirth camp"? (I didn't really know there were camps)

[ghop]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Well, the "fruit" of zazen isn't found in the "talk" but in the "walk."

That being said, this is a discussion board. So, we have to talk.

So you get a bunch of people together, and everyone is viewing this thing we label REALITY from their own limited perspective. There are differences of opinion. It's only natural that someone new to Zen would want to talk about rebirth and vegetarianism and whatever else. These things interest the thinking mind. But those who have sat for some time have seen through this thinking mind. They have put it down. They use it when necessary, but for the most part they just regard all that noise in the same way they might regard the sound of traffic outside the window. It doesn't get them anywhere. So why bother?

Let people talk.

Test. Which of these two statements are more wise?

1. Let us discuss the theory behind The Twelve Links of Interdependent Co-Arising."

2. I shit my pants.

They're both just noise.

Sitting makes us more simple.

More walk, less talk.

gassho
Greg

[anista]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Hello Greg,

These things interest the thinking mind. But those who have sat for some time have seen through this thinking mind. They have put it down. They use it when necessary, but for the most part they just regard all that noise in the same way they might regard the sound of traffic outside the window. It doesn't get them anywhere. So why bother?

Test. Which of these two statements are more wise?

1. Let us discuss the theory behind The Twelve Links of Interdependent Co-Arising."

2. I shit my pants.

They're both just noise.

If I may, I respectfully disagree.

Discussions on vital Buddhist subjects are not pointless, and these kinds of discussions have come up for over two thousand years, by experienced masters of the way, as these discussions show the way Buddha pointed out that will lead to awakening. So, question number one 1 (Let us discuss the theory behind The Twelve Links of Interdependent Co-Arising) is more urgent to discuss since it will help people get to right understanding, which is a necessary component in realizing the Buddha way. The karmic effects of a false understanding of questions like these will potentially lead you in a direction of more duhkha. A discussion, at it's best, will at least lead some people to ponder the different ways and to experience right understanding by their own efforts. Granted, not all discussions are quite to the point, and may in some cases add to the confusion.

On a cloudy day
without the finger pointing to the moon
we wouldn't know where to keep our gaze
when the clouds finally disperse

Be well,

/anista

[Rev R]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

2. I shit my pants.

I must interject an off topic comment here. WELL DONE!

[Amelia]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

..."Just Sit" is a Total, Complete and Thorough Answer to All Things, Leaving No Doubt Unresolved...

I'm not saying it's a bad answer - not at all - I'm saying that without a more thorough understanding of Shikantaza and our Treeleaf practice, a relative newcomer may hear the admonition without really hearing it and also without examining the motivation for the question.

As I have seen it, and sometimes felt, a lot of aspects of Buddhist practice produce this effect on the newcomer. It is all fine and good until the student comes across some aspect they don't agree with-- or think they don't agree with-- or don't understand. The language of Buddhism is a little hard for Westerners sometimes. For example, they hear that "there is no abiding soul" and immediately jump to the conclusion that all Buddhists are Atheists, or something to that effect. Only with time and their own continued exploration, do they come to realize the finer aspect of the meaning behind "no abiding soul", which I, personally, have not quite unwrapped the meaning of, but I keep studying. Some will simply lose interest and abandon study, and that is their karma.

It is not up to us to make sure that the newcomer continues study when they misunderstand something. It is up to them. There is a point that must be crossed that is the difference between making assumptions about Buddhist practice based on superficial study, and actually studying and applying the teachings to life.

[Tb]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

..."Just Sit" is a Total, Complete and Thorough Answer to All Things, Leaving No Doubt Unresolved...

I'm not saying it's a bad answer - not at all - I'm saying that without a more thorough understanding of Shikantaza and our Treeleaf practice, a relative newcomer may hear the admonition without really hearing it and also without examining the motivation for the question.

As I have seen it, and sometimes felt, a lot of aspects of Buddhist practice produce this effect on the newcomer. It is all fine and good until the student comes across some aspect they don't agree with-- or think they don't agree with-- or don't understand. The language of Buddhism is a little hard for Westerners sometimes. For example, they hear that "there is no abiding soul" and immediately jump to the conclusion that all Buddhists are Atheists, or something to that effect. Only with time and their own continued exploration, do they come to realize the finer aspect of the meaning behind "no abiding soul", which I, personally, have not quite unwrapped the meaning of, but I keep studying. Some will simply lose interest and abandon study, and that is their karma.

It is not up to us to make sure that the newcomer continues study when they misunderstand something. It is up to them. There is a point that must be crossed that is the difference between making assumptions about Buddhist practice based on superficial study, and actually studying and applying the teachings to life.

Hi.

_/_

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Keishin]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

Hellos to all posting here!

Redundancy in the topics threads in the forums...
These are perennial topics and they regularly arise: for the curious with patience and time looking through the beginning Treeleaf forum pages it would be possible to pick up these topics and add to a discussion which would transcend place and time....the newest members adding to the thoughts of the first members to ever post.
My guess is most of us do not have much time or patience: there is barely enough time to come here
So we start threads for what's on our minds...

Rev. Bob McNeil (soto lineage/Zengaku Soyu Matsuoka roshi) of The Sangha of the Compassionate Heart in Lakewood said there were some phrases you could pretty much use exclusively in most if not all interactions with others:
'Is that so?' 'We'll see.' ''I don't know' and 'Thank you.'

But then Matsuoka roshi had that sign in the hallway leading to the zendo which said ' no talking, no lingering, no discussion'
Rev. Bob had a different personality: at the end of sitting there was always a 'Buddha cafe' afterwards with tea or coffee served to all. He chopped wood and we sat around a fire pit while he answered any questions and discussed all manner of subjects--Rob Zombie movies, the Big Bang theory, rolling tobacco, etc.

It was (still is as far as I know) a good place to practice.

He frequently told us that listening to the sound of the water fountain was the same as listening to the discussion.

He would ask us 'what's important' and when we would say 'everything' he would say 'if everything is important, then nothing is important.'

These phrases 'Is that so?' 'We'll see.' ''I don't know' and 'Thank you' don't keep a discussion going: they are not verbal logs to add to the burning issue. They are discussion limiters if not discussion enders.
When the disscussion ends? The sound of the water fountain returns. (it never left, it was there all along)

[Seiryu]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

To Keishin, Thank you for sharing. I really liked your post!

On another note, in bringing up recurring threads, I wanted to share this about reincarnation. I think rebirth is a fascinating topic. Here is a video I found of Brad Warner discussing his views on it. And I wanted to hear thoughts and what he said: Especially the part that Dogen held strongly the idea that their was no reincarnation. Sorry if this was posted before.

[youtube]

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[disastermouse]

Re: A few thoughts about recurring threads

I want to reiterate that there's nothing wrong with recurrent threads. I was just noticing that they were happening and I was speculating about what was going on and thinking about how our reactions to those threads might be worth looking into.

This is especially true about the divisive debates - rebirth, vegetarianism, teacher challenges, etc.

Chet