Drugs and Enlightenment

[Amelia]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Practice has straightened the way.

Ah, if only I had found that out at an age as young as yours... :-)

I bow to you anyway. _/_

The way has straightened, but I still sometimes go full-speed at the humps for fun.

[fanndrew]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Hello, Kojip,

I always say that experience is the greatest teacher. I admire you for being able to use that suffering as your teacher, and I think it is good that you have that experience in your pocket to be able to maybe help people in the same situation in the future.

Amelia and Kirkmc: I'm pretty sure that we've all been in those traps from time to time, and we will probably make those mistakes again - we're only human.

I hope everyone is having a good holiday season!

-Andrew

[Jundo]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Here's what I usually say about mountains and hiking, much as Bro. Brad says. While drugs can bring about some psychedelic experience, peak experience, opium happiness, or "seeing God" ... all are entertaining or educational places to visit at best, misleading or traps to addiction at worst. Rather ...

Our way is a very special way to climb a mountain. It is a lifetime climb (maybe many lifetimes in some ways of looking at it), and there will be many peaks and valleys, much changing scenery along the way. However, the point of the climb is not, as it would seem to be, the "summit" way up high or some distant goal at the end of the day. Rather, it is to realize that the Buddha-mountain was all around us all along, in every footstep, and the hiking was the arrival at that never-departed-in-each-step. (In fact, the mountain is just ultimately us all along, and "us" the mountain ... and no "us" and no "mountain" and no "Buddha" ... and the very walking realizes the mountain, makes the mountain-us come alive and walk! Are we walking upon the mountain, is the mountain walking under us or Buddha over mountain, or is it all one dance of All One Mountain Climbing Mountain?)

In any case, each step by step of the hike is eventually seen as the point of the trip (a Realization), and the realizing (making real) of the hiking (a Realization of the Realization) ... not so much the arrival at some distant point over the next hill. The hike was the point AND the arrival when known so. And this Realization IS the arrival at a most wonderful destination that had always been underfoot.

There is no place to stumble no place to fall ... yet beware. On this mountain, all paths are still the mountain (ultimately, What Mountain?) ... Certainly, all paths just go where they go, and we always are just where we are. Yet, though there is no place to "get to" ... some lead in circles, into poison ivy or right off the cliff! Watch Your Step!

Something like that.

Gassho, J

[threethirty]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

I've had this opinion about drugs and $foo almost universally. If you haven't done drugs you can't speak to the subject. I usually have this argument with people regarding the "bad/evilness" of drugs.

I grew up around drugs. My mom had spent the time up to being a mom living a really wild life, My best friend (we refer to each other as hetero-lifemates) has done A LOT of "experimentation" (a lot of psychedelics), and I did my own bit of experimentation. And I think we would all say that drugs wont shortcut you to enlightenment. My buddy thinks it "opens new realms of thought" or some BS but he has never used the E word. All because we have had the same realization. Drugs wear off then you are stuck in the sucky real world again.

But if you wanna try it GO FOR IT, the worst thing you can do (spiritually) is be wrong, waste a lot of time, and enjoy the crap out of it. Just be mindful of the drug laws in you country. Although prison would give you a lot of time to stare at a blank wall...

*note: I am not advising going to prison [just covering my butt [img]{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[RichardH]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

But if you wanna try it GO FOR IT, the worst thing you can do (spiritually) is be wrong, waste a lot of time, and enjoy the crap out of it.

An acid trip is fascinating because it is psychically expansive and non-ordinary, but that non-ordinariness is no closer to "suchness" than ordinariness. A blissful experience of Godhead is no more Holy than an uninspired experience of the subway on a Monday morning, no closer to anything. My first teacher use to say "It's not about having an experience, but whatever experience is present as such".
So in that sense drugs are truly useless. But, I'd propose that they are not merely useless, but handicapping, and point to my own health as an example. There have been physiological consequences. Acid (for instance) is punishing, stressful on the whole system, and this is even if it isn't cut with crap, which it usually is. Physically all those trips set me back by frying this nervous system. Mentally it set me back by creating a massive expansion of samsaric space, abstracting psychic worlds within psychic worlds. I think it was Trungpa who describe an acid trip as "super-samsara". That about sums it IMO.

[Taigu]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Kojip,

your words are spot on. And your teacher is right.

my mantra; breathing
my deity; the ordinary
my practice, wonder

something like that


gassho


Taigu

[RichardH]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Hello Taigu. I didn't see your response before posting (heedlessly :lol: ) elsewhere. Thank you. Drug use did set things back, by amping up my need to find a transcendent escape. It only brought suffering and fatigue, and wasted time. Though maybe it wasn't wasted because lessons learned "cheek to cold wall" tend to be learned well. Gassho kojip.

Incidentally and maybe bit off topic, This Dharma name "Kojip" was given by a teacher who was very tough on me. According to him it meant Four Noble Truths , but that word actually means "Stubborn" in Korean, and it is true that lessons are hard learned.

[Kyonin]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Throwing my two small cents to the mix...

I know drugs were part of the spiritual life back in the day but now we have science to tell us that with discipline and dedication in our zazen, we can achieve the same effects.

Thing is it takes way longer and a lot of work. Drugs are fast and easy, but the downside is all the nefarious effects they have on the human brain and mind.

Now if you ask me, my country and lots of others are suffering right now because of drugs. We are currently on war against cartels and so far Mexico have lost 50,000 + lives to it. There are who sell them and who use them, being the ones who sell them criminals by any law of any country.

The illegal drugs industry is full of death, violence, deceit, wasted lives and guns. Buying drugs, no matter what users say to justify themselves, only supports the industry of death.

So, if you use drugs no only you are taking a path to self destruction, but you are helping destroy complete nations for it.

Sorry for being this harsh, but my family and thousands of other families live every day in fear thanks to the war against cartels. And the sad truth is that cartels are winning.

So my question to drug users is... do you really want to support an industry based on death and suffering?

[Ryumon]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Choco,

It's a question of which drugs. If I understand correctly, the problems in Mexico are essentially due to cocaine, which is the drug that brings in the most money. Most discussions of drugs and "spiritual" uses revolve around hallucinogens, which certainly don't make much money.

Not to defend one over the other, but "drugs" in general includes a lot of things.