Drugs and Enlightenment

[Seiryu]

Drugs have been used before by spiritual practitioner to try to get a shortcut to enlightenment, and although I have strong views against drug use in general, there is a physiological change that happens to the brain that produces a so called enlightenment experience.

But my question is, if drugs can produce a physiological change that is said to be similar to an enlightenment experience, is enlightenment a physiological change in the brain? There is a lot of talk of enlightenment from a purely spiritual perspective, but there doesn't seem to be a lot about it from a more biological and physical perspective...

what are some of your thoughts on this subject

[Shokai]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

About forty years ago I experienced a heightened state brought on by stress at work. For two or three days i experienced everything as being connected. I could anticipate what people would say and communicate without words. It was weird and i think I grossed out more than a few people before I knew what was happening. I was told by a psychiatrist that I had taken a rare abnormal behavioral swing but that I had worked through it , would stand me in good stead. I am convinced that if that had happened me today the medical community would have a far greater understanding of what had occurred and if back then it could have been nurtured in the right way I could be running my own religion right now.
The brain, perhaps the most intricate instruments we get to use, is magnificent and if we are ever privileged enough to understand it's workings and control it's chemical output, we will surely be far more competent at solving the world's problems.

[Risho]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

When I think of drugs I think of illegal drugs and I don't think that brings a state of Enlightenment. When I think of enlightenment I think of consciousnessness. When under the influence one may appear one way but in reality they are much less conscious which is why operation of normal things like driving walking or speaking can be impaired.

[Jundo]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Hi,

Drugs do not lead to "enlightenment" or even "enlightened states" ... not by my definition anyway.

Drugs lead to various unusual states of mind which clearly demonstrate the fantastic "mind theatre" at work between and before one's eyes, in the realm of perception, the senses, feeling. Yes, some do show us visions that testify to some Buddhist teachings ... like being able to see the deep interconnection of objects in the world we usually assume to be separate things. We might, through drugs (or likewise through mental disease) encounter unusual visions, feelings of peace (or of great fear and horror!), unusual thoughts and insights, feelings of love or of anger and paranoia and violence ... all that the mind is capable of. Some of that can be quiet entertaining, educational, exciting ... even life changing! Some can be quiet terrible, disturbing ... even (maybe more often, especially if drug use continues) life destroying!

To visit the Grand Canyon is a wondrous experience, eye opening as the scene expands endlessly to the horizon. However, one best not wish to live there, a prisoner on the observation deck for tourists at the Grand Canyon! Wondrous place to visit ... wouldn't (and couldn't) live there. Rather, we buy a postcard or carve the timeless scene into our hearts ... then get back on the bus. Life is what is happening both before, during and after that. "Enlightenment" is realized on the bus or off, the whole WILD, MARVELOUS BUS TRIP OF LIFE is the scene ... and not just the wild trippy experience or startling scenery. (This is especially true as our Buddhist Practice allows us to realize that the whole trip .. and the bus, the fellow passengers both friendly and not, the wheels and the road, the bus stations and passing scenery ... both beautiful and ugly, happy and sad ... and the Grand Canyon itself are all intimately WHO WE ARE AND WE JUST THAT!)

Opiates will allow us a peace so all pervading that addicts will steal for it, sell themselves for it ... forget to eat, forget to move. Such is not life either. Between doses of "peace" they will be filled with divisions, fears, regrets, sadness. One runs from life or into the drug with attachment and desire. However, "Enlightenment" is a Peace of One Piece that we realize right in the heart of life ... that mends our hearts, even the broken hearts of the drug addict.

Oh, back in my college days, I experimented with this and that and the other thing (fortunately, not to excess and the point of doing myself harm like so many of my friends and acquaintances back then). I have personally understood the real meanings buried in the lyrics of every Pink Floyd and King Crimson album. I have seen God too ... Yawn. I learned that the mind is plastic, endlessly creative ... and that what we think we see before us, so solid and defined, is rather an illusion, a dream. Those experiences, like all my studies in college, were educational at their best ... or just harmless fun. But, ultimately, they were like going to see a movie with excellent special effects ... a truly moving and startling film that may have deep impact on one's life ... but which soon comes to an end. One does not want to stay and live in the movie theatre more than a short time, never coming out.

"Enlightenment" is no "one off" experience ... see it, and be done. Rather, "Enlightenment" is Practice and Realization ... making Wisdom and Compassion real and working in this life. It must work in the morning, it must work at night ... it must work as friends, spouses, parents, workers ... it must work in the hospital emergency room and the funeral room, the birthday party and the vacation to the Grand Canyon ... it must be PUT TO WORK. It is seeing that all of this life is a movie and our minds are the "movie theatre" ... sometimes comedy sometimes tragedy, but also a film we are acting and directing as we go along. Up to us.

And that is not something that merely can come out of a shot or a pill.

Gassho, J **

[Jundo]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

** I do also feel that neurological and other medical research is making qreat strides in discovering what makes a "peaceful, healthy mind" from a "violent, unstable mind", and in general about many of our emotions and sensations. I do feel that this research will help us in our Practice someday soon. For example, Richard Davidson at the University of Wisconsin (a Buddhist himself, the fellow who keeps having Tibetan monks meditate in MRI machines) just opened this place ...

http://www.investigatinghealthyminds.org/

[Kyonin]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

** I do also feel that neurological and other medical research is making qreat strides in discovering what makes a "peaceful, healthy mind" from a "violent, unstable mind", and in general about many of our emotions and sensations. I do feel that this research will help us in our Practice someday soon. For example, Richard Davidson at the University of Wisconsin (a Buddhist himself, the fellow who keeps having Tibetan monks meditate in MRI machines) just opened this place ...

http://www.investigatinghealthyminds.org/

I have read about them. Yes, they make impressive studies of the mind and meditation.

Thank you for the link!

[Kaishin]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

It's deja vu all over again

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3971&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hi lit=drugs

[ghop]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

I have had some exquisite highs. Not only through substances, but also through clinging to "exciting" circumstances. No matter how high I got, I always came down. The vacation always comes to an end. The high becomes a headache. Reality is boss.

I understand it this way: if a person takes a psychedelic drug, what happens? The mind begins functioning in a fascinating but very abnormal way. Hallucinations occur. We feel that we are the center of the universe, that all revolves around us. This is the ego at its worst and purest form. It is the infant magnified to become a god. This is easy to understand. All that delusion is caused by a small amount of drug affecting the nervous system.

Enlightenment never puts self at the center of the universe. It sees through the illusion of self to discover that we are not the center of the universe, but the universe is the center of itself, and we are part of that. A perfect wholeness, even when we feel out of joint.

Buddha is about transcending "high" and "low." This reminds me of the "Roller Coaster" talk Jundo gave a few years ago. What goes up comes down. Enjoy the ride.

gassho
Greg

[Hoyu]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Very well put Greg! _/_

The irony of this one even gave me a little chuckle

A perfect wholeness, even when we feel out of joint.

:lol:

[Rev R]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

The more detailed a depiction of "enlightenment" is, the easier it is for the brain to manufacture it. Perhaps the greatest temptation Mara has to offer is to feign defeat.

[Taigu]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Perhaps the greatest temptation Mara has to offer is to feign defeat.

So true, Rev R.


gassho

Rev T.

[Shujin]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Reality is boss.

Gassho.

[Shogen]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

The more detailed a depiction of "enlightenment" is, the easier it is for the brain to manufacture it. .

Few words great content. Gassho Shogen

[disastermouse]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Mind =/= brain. They are two sides of one reality, but one is not reducible to the other.

[RichardH]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Took much LSD , Mushrooms, etc. in my youth, and had too spend the next twenty years recovering from being "spiritual".