Drugs and Enlightenment

[SoR]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Brad Warner wrote an interesting post on this topic a few months back: http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com/2011...-of-drugs.html

He uses the analogy of a mountain climber versus someone who takes a helicopter to the top of a mountain. Even if we accept the premise that drugs can lead to some sort of enlightenment experience (I don't), I think Warner offers a good explanation of why it doesn't matter:

Let’s say you met a veteran mountaineer with over a quarter century of climbing experience, a person who has written books on mountain climbing and routinely personally instructs others in the art of climbing. And let’s imagine what would happen if you tried to convince this guy that people who take helicopters to the tops of mountains get everything that mountain climbers get and get it a whole lot easier.

The mountain climber would certainly tell you that the breathtaking view a guy who takes a helicopter to the top of a mountain gets is not in any way, shape or form the same view that a person who climbs the mountain herself gets.

To the mountain climber, the guy in the helicopter is just a hyperactive thrill seeker who wants nothing more than to experience a pretty view without putting any effort into it. The helicopter guy thinks the goal of mountain climbing is to be on top of the mountain and that climbing is an inefficient way to accomplish this goal. He just doesn’t get it. At all.

The helicopter guy misses out on the amazing sights there are to see on the way up. He doesn’t know the thrill of mastering the mountain through his own efforts. He doesn’t know the hardships and dangers involved in making the climb. And he’ll never know the awesome wonder of descending the mountain back into familiar territory. All he’s done is given some money to a person who owns a helicopter. He probably couldn’t even find the mountain himself, let alone make it to the top. When there are no helicopters around, the poor guy is helplessly grounded.

If the helicopter guy claims that he has reached the same place as the mountain climber, the mountain climber knows in ways the helicopter guy can’t even fathom that the helicopter guy is a fool.

To a mountain climber, the goal of mountain climbing is not the moment of sitting on top enjoying the view. That’s just one small part of the experience. It may not even be the best part. To a mountain climber, every view, from every point on the mountain is significant and wonderful.

People who think that the pinnacle of the experience is that moment of being right on the tippy-top, don’t understand the experience at all. The poor attention addled things probably never will.

What I am working on in meditation involves every single moment of life. So-called “peak experiences” can be fun. But they no more define what life is about that so-called “mundane experiences.” When you start making such separations, you have already lost the most precious thing in life, the ability to fully immerse yourself in every experience.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Drugs and Enlightenment

Hch-€

[Omoi Otoshi]

Drugs and Enlightenment

Hch-€

My Iphone decided to post this. No, I'm not on drugs.

On a side note:
Some Rinzai people describe their first Kensho experience as having a nervous breakdown. Could this kind of red-hot-iron-ball-in-throat-induced insight be compared to seeing the oneness of the universe during a high?

/Pontus

[Ryumon]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

My personal experiences in the late 70s with hallucinogenics were certainly essential to my being aware that there is a reality other than what we see every day. While I have no illusions to think that drugs can lead to any sort of enlightenment - especially the type fictionally depicted on the Casteneda books - those glimpses I had changed my life and led me to start looking for what was different.

Interestingly, SonofRage, posting above, lists his location as Queens, NY, which is where I grew up, and had those experiences. ;-)

[Ryumon]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Some Rinzai people describe their first Kensho experience as having a nervous breakdown. Could this kind of red-hot-iron-ball-in-throat-induced insight be compared to seeing the oneness of the universe during a high?

That's an interesting thought. I don't know exactly what a "nervous breakdown" is; I always thought it was another word for depression. I've been there, and I didn't see any oneness of the universe. But I can understand that a powerful, sudden psychic event, where the universe pulls the rug out from under your feet, may force you to see reality in a different way.

[Amelia]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

On the more troublesome days of my anxiety, insight or realization would feel scary.

[Ryumon]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

On the more troublesome days of my anxiety, insight or realization would feel scary.

If it's the proverbial rug pulled out from under your feet, yea. But if it's bliss and peace, I think it would be quite the opposite. I've had a few experiences - when sitting, not just when taking drugs - of very deep calm, bliss and peace. They're interesting. I was told not to expect them, or seek for them, and I manage to not do so. But even just the memory of their happening is a reassurance that reality is not all there is.

[RichardH]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

I don't understand the mountaintop image. If "Enlightenment" is realizing bodymind and world as such , alone and unobstructed. What could taking a drug accomplish except to move away from that self-same recognition? When I was taking psychotropic drugs, I was immersed in Theosophical ideas, and trying to realize transcendence from the world. It was very other-than-this, very grasping. Buddhism introduced me to non-grasping. It was very different than climbing a spiritual mountain for a "higher" view.

[fanndrew]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

I think a lot of the problems with people equating drugs with enlightenment also come from a misconception about what enlightenment is. We place so much emphasis on prolonged joy and instant gratification (at least we do in the U.S.A.), that we always envision these things as our highest ideal for everything. Even in relationships, many people have a misconception that relationships should always feel like that initial high of infatuation and that their partner should be the sole source of their joy in their life. They don't realize that a real relationship takes work and that it is more finding peace with your partner and finding a true friend. I think they place these unrealistic expectations on enlightenment as well. They believe that enlightenment is this constant state of elation, so they use whatever methods they can to reach that state. Enlightenment, at least i my very very very limited understanding, is more akin to a calming breath. It is the contentment and acceptance of just being. I think everyone has enlightening experiences from time to time, and when this happens, you feel a rush of joy, but then you must come back down to earth. However, I could be wrong.

[RichardH]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

I'll leave "Enlightenment" for teachers to talk about and stay where my feet belong. which is practice. Wanting this moment to be, feel, other than it is, is the cause of Dukkha. This moment as such is non-Dukkha. That is the simple ongoing practice. Surely no one here thinks Enlightenment is about a high or a good feeling, we are not talking about that are we?

[fanndrew]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

I'll leave "Enlightenment" for teachers to talk about and stay where my feet belong. which is practice. Wanting this moment to be, feel, other than it is, is the cause of Dukkha. This moment as such is non-Dukkha. That is the simple ongoing practice. Surely no one here thinks Enlightenment is about a high or a good feeling, we are not talking about that are we?

Sorry, Kojip. I'm not sure which part of my post is causing an issue. I'm not claiming anyone here has the misconception that I was referring to, nor am I claiming to be an authority on enlightenment, I'm just going by what I've read from people much wiser than me. On the issue of "drug induced" enlightenment, I'm just speaking from past experiences with acquaintances. Also, my statement about "just being" was an attempt at a succinct statement referring to what you stated in your second and third sentences. Sorry, that I'm confused or if I offended.

Another question. If in the past, you took drugs to "transcend" this world. Do you feel that this was Dukkha, or do you feel that this is a useful spiritual practice? I'm just curious, because I know a number of people who still do this.

[Ryumon]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

I think a lot of the problems with people equating drugs with enlightenment also come from a misconception about what enlightenment is. We place so much emphasis on prolonged joy and instant gratification (at least we do in the U.S.A.), that we always envision these things as our highest ideal for everything. Even in relationships, many people have a misconception that relationships should always feel like that initial high of infatuation and that their partner should be the sole source of their joy in their life. They don't realize that a real relationship takes work and that it is more finding peace with your partner and finding a true friend. I think they place these unrealistic expectations on enlightenment as well. They believe that enlightenment is this constant state of elation, so they use whatever methods they can to reach that state. Enlightenment, at least i my very very very limited understanding, is more akin to a calming breath. It is the contentment and acceptance of just being. I think everyone has enlightening experiences from time to time, and when this happens, you feel a rush of joy, but then you must come back down to earth. However, I could be wrong.

A agree with both points. First, the US, and the western world in general, is very reward-oriented, and anything that gives a dopamine rush is considered to be a Good Thing. People want a quick fix of happiness, and when it goes away, they grasp and try and find another. (And it bothers me _a lot_ that the Dalai Lama and other buddhist authors and teachers focus on "happiness" so much.)

As for enlightenment, I also agree with your idea. My guess is that, just as mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers, everything else is the same, but an enlightened one just sees through the filters that prevent us from seeing what things Really Are.

Some interesting commentary here: http://www.mro.org/zmm/teachings/daido/teisho49.php

[RichardH]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

I'll leave "Enlightenment" for teachers to talk about and stay where my feet belong. which is practice. Wanting this moment to be, feel, other than it is, is the cause of Dukkha. This moment as such is non-Dukkha. That is the simple ongoing practice. Surely no one here thinks Enlightenment is about a high or a good feeling, we are not talking about that are we?

Sorry, Kojip. I'm not sure which part of my post is causing an issue. I'm not claiming anyone here has the misconception that I was referring to, nor am I claiming to be an authority on enlightenment, I'm just going by what I've read from people much wiser than me. On the issue of "drug induced" enlightenment, I'm just speaking from past experiences with acquaintances. Also, my statement about "just being" was an attempt at a succinct statement referring to what you stated in your second and third sentences. Sorry, that I'm confused or if I offended.

Another question. If in the past, you took drugs to "transcend" this world. Do you feel that this was Dukkha, or do you feel that this is a useful spiritual practice? I'm just curious, because I know a number of people who still do this.

Hi fanndrew. It wasn't anything in particular about your post. I'm just getting oriented on this site and trying to get a sense of where other folk's practice is at, whether we are on the same-ish page. Nice to meet you.

Regarding your question. Yes it was all Dukkha, wall to wall Dukkha. Cessation of Dukkha, the Third Noble Truth, wasn't even on the radar yet. It was useful in that I learned first hand that conditions are conditions, whether subtle and spiritual, or gross and mundane.
Pursuit of one condition over another was a tail chasing exercise that was exhausting and lead, fortunately, to encounter Buddhist practice and a opportunity to stop.

[Amelia]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

We place so much emphasis on prolonged joy and instant gratification (at least we do in the U.S.A.), that we always envision these things as our highest ideal for everything.

I have often been in this trap.

Even in relationships, many people have a misconception that relationships should always feel like that initial high of infatuation and that their partner should be the sole source of their joy in their life.

...Been in this trap too.

I have also been in the trap of letting marijuana be the "fix-all" in my life.

Practice has straightened the way.

[Ryumon]

Re: Drugs and Enlightenment

Practice has straightened the way.

Ah, if only I had found that out at an age as young as yours... :-)