In Defense of Treeleaf

[Jundo]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

I still come to the forum here to read from time to time, and several times I've been tempted to come out of "lurking" to make a post on this subject, but have resisted. This thread, however, brings out the topic in such a way I feel compelled to respond.

Thank you, Stephanie. You are always welcome here, and I hope you find what you need.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jiki22]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

...Jundo and Taigu's teaching of the Dharma over the World Wide Web, particularly their giving of Jukai and Shukke Tokudo over Skype, has been criticized by some. I have read their critics summon the inadmissibility of Dharma Transmission in dream or from the dead as a way of undermining what happens here at Treeleaf. But this criticism is fallacious. No analogy can be drawn between what Jundo and Taigu are doing and interactions in either apparitions or dreams...

In our Dojo they told that in live/person is the best way,
it has been so for ages, from master to master to teacher to student,
but...
The world goes on and we use all its possibilities
that is my point of view
:wink:

...There is no temple of my practice near me. ....

I have one and still i'm here too , open to new dharma in different ways
:wink:

by defending Treeleaf, you give the impression there are reasons for it to be defended...

right my point too,
but i like too add : you may defend the (treeleaf) sangha (in its entirety)
not a person (Master, teacher, student) or the forum what so ever.

just giving my ideas
ops:

[Dosho]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Stephanie,

I am sorry you did not find what you were looking for here at Treeleaf and I wish you well in your practice elsewhere.

I did learn a great deal from you, so for that I thank you.

Take care.

Gassho,
Dosho

[andyZ]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

To Stephanie,

I had a chance to read through some of your posts from 2008. I'm honestly glad that you're finding answers to your questions through your continuous Zen practice elsewhere. But looking at your character (solely judging by your posts) perhaps shikantaza practice, as emphasized here, was not for you?

Once I was in a Rinzai zendo, and there were people practicing Mu and having a dokusan with a teacher. The first time I heard this animal roar of "MUUUUU!!!!" I was scared shitless. I can't really imagine myself doing this or ever expressing my "true nature" in this way but for those people that was probably the right way.

[Rev R]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

i wonder if these types of discussions/ arguments occurred when "Buddhists" of old began to use the information
technologies of their times- writing and wood block printing.

to the Tigress,
nothing to add but "Hello!"

[Risho]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

I'm in the school of thought where I don't think Treeleaf needs any defending, but that's how I approach my life as well. I'm not smug; although I can be. I just mean, either you find what you are looking for here or you don't.

I find a lot of value here. I wish Stephanie were around more because I really like her challenges. I know what she's saying about status quo, but I think we're free to ask any questions. I don't always "get" what is being presented, and I ask questions. Sometimes I answer my questions before I ask them. There are the deeper questions as well. But who can answer those but me?

In terms of formulating nice "packages" to post on the forum; whether we communicate on a forum to person to person I'm going to do that anyway. It's part of communicating as a human being. We always frame things with our pre-defined concepts. It's just a part of being a human being.

Now, I do have to say there are challenges with an online forum. Posting is not a dialogue. THere is back and forth, but forum posting can lack the organic back and forth of a true dialogue. Also, you all don't really know me. You would know me much more intimately if we were personally acquainted. You don't get the nuance of being you do in the presence of another human being.

However, I do believe we get to know each other just a little more slowly. And we probalby all just show the side of us we want to show, which Iguess isn't too far off from reality anyway.

Now, in terms of getting dharma transmission through a dream. That's just plain bullshit. Excuse my language (I'm from Chicago ), but I'm just not that superstitious.

I have a lot of baggage, and this place helps me.

I'm glad you posted again Stephanie. This sangha will grow based on the strenght of each practitioners practice; it's a shame you couldn't come by more often to rile things up

[Hogen]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

IMO, because of its unique online home, much of what happens on Treeleaf is what we bring into it. If we choose to just pack our mind along with the willingness to engage in the practice of zazen, we may find Treeleaf and its unique qualities to work for us.

If we pack in extra philosophical dilemmas and issues, I think not just Treeleaf but many institutions will fail you, because the answer to questions will only lead to more questions, ad infinitum.

Questioning is a good thing. but at some point, questioning has an endpoint, and it is our practice which much begin again.

[Hoyu]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Hi All,

Many good concerns have been brought up as to where Treeleaf may be "lacking". I honestly believe most of those concerns can be addressed if we look at Treeleaf as a whole and not imagine what is lacking by focusing only on it's parts. The forums, for example, are just one(of many) parts which work together to create a whole experience which we call Treeleaf. One(big, yet justifiable) issue which I see come up often is the person to person aspect. I feel that our teachers have thought of all of this and worked hard to eliminate such shortcomings. If the forums lack the ability to give the feeling of intimate contact there is Dokusan, the Treeleaf Tea Party and if all that fails, there is also the retreats one can attend(Can't think of a better way to make the human connection than that!) Not to mention that the Zendo in Tukuba has an open door policy where any of us can attend in the flesh. Sound like I'm defending Treeleaf? That's because I am :twisted: :lol:

Gassho,
John

[Onken]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

I have sat for a while at a Rinzai zendo and didn't get as much out of it as I do with this sangha. I read posts everyday by most and every once in a while chime in with my small amount of knowledge, but even though this is "virtual", i actually feel more a part of this than I did at a "live" zendo. Most just listened to the Roshi without contributing to the discussion. I appreciate this sangha's members and all their contributions. It's real enough for me!

Gassho,

Matt

[Kaishin]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Stephanie,

I'm glad that you posted. I've always appreciated your different perspective and challenges, and even PM'ed you a while back to ask after you and see if you might stop in again. I hope you continue to do so, even though you are practicing elsewhere.

[Martin]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Writing on a forum like this goes in the opposite direction of Zen training. Forum-posting nurtures and supports living life through the filter of narrative and concept, rather than breaking down and challenging our love of simple narrative explanations of our lives.

There is always that risk, as you say, Stephanie. Posting on an internet forum it may be particularly easy to mistake the pointing finger for the moon, the forum for the whole of the practice, and the words for the stillness between them. To want to make good posts when our practice is beyond good and bad posts.

I hope you are well and that your practice flourishes.

Gassho

Martin

[Shogen]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Writing on a forum like this goes in the opposite direction of Zen training. Forum-posting nurtures and supports living life through the filter of narrative and concept, rather than breaking down and challenging our love of simple narrative explanations of our lives.

There is always that risk, as you say, Stephanie. Posting on an internet forum it may be particularly easy to mistake the pointing finger for the moon, the forum for the whole of the practice, and the words for the stillness between them. To want to make good posts when our practice is beyond good and bad posts.

I hope you are well and that your practice flourishes.

Gassho



Martin

Martin
Thank you for this eloquent summary. When you look into Treeleaf you find so much more than the ability to post on the forum. Everything fits into life's busy schedule and is there waiting when you have the time. Gassho Shogen

[Jiki22]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Thank you for this eloquent summary. When you look into Treeleaf you find so much more than the ability to post on the forum. Everything fits into life's busy schedule and is there waiting when you have the time. Gassho Shogen

i would add :

You just have to stop all movement,
inside and outside,
if you are here
like in zazen.

[Shogen]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Thank you for this eloquent summary. When you look into Treeleaf you find so much more than the ability to post on the forum. Everything fits into life's busy schedule and is there waiting when you have the time. Gassho Shogen

i would add :

You just have to stop all movement,
inside and outside,
if you are here
like in zazen.

Jiki
Yes...Thank you
gassho Shogen

[Shokai]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Thank you Soen for posting this thread, it is certainly enlightening to see what everyone is grateful for. Also, Thank you Martin, Shogen and Jiki for these latter postings. If Tree Leaf was only a forum I would definitely not be here.

gassho,