In Defense of Treeleaf

[Yugen]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

What is it that needs defending? Let the dharma combat begin!

Things are not always what they seem...

Choco's point regarding the paradigm-changing impact of the internet on human communication and sharing of knowledge and information is spot-on. I am only really beginning to understand the enormity of this impact. The introduction of the moveable type press made mass literacy possible... the moveable type press was not initially welcomed by the western and eastern churches in Europe because in order to learn to read, heretofore one had to learn under the tutelage of a priest, and the instructional material consisted of scripture.... a powerful recruitment and management tool for the spiritual and temporal destiny of the masses.... none of those newfangled ideas about the earth revolving around the sun, etc.... Copernicus and the notion of orbiting celestial bodies was not real popular with the ecclesiastical establishment..... but I digress...

Fast forward to 2011.... the notion of the dharma being shared via an internet community/sangha is discomforting to some in the zen community because (and I paraphrase) 'teaching and transmission is best done person to person' and 'it is not really zen if it is done over the internet....' I used to succumb to the "inferiority complex" of being a member of an internet community (and allowed teachers/members of sanghas who practiced in person) to manipulate that insecurity. Two things have happened to change that perspective for me - one, as I become active in the formation of a new sangha, the knowledge I have gained here at Treeleaf is being actively solicited for the establishment of a more "traditional" zendo, and as I explain the lengths Jundo and Taigu have gone to build a practice community (Ango, Jukai, Rakusu sewing, Zazenkai, etc.) it is apparent that what we have accomplished is significant and not restricted by physical boundaries. Secondly, those "traditionalists" who pause when I mention my membership in this sangha remind me of members of the religious community in feudal Europe at the time of the introduction of the moveable type press - their way of doing things, of (I hate to say this) controlling information and bestowing the "privilege" of information or "inner teachings" as a means of favoring or cultivating certain followers, is being challenged. In a literal sense, this sangha represents a revolutionary concept, and I never thought of myself as a revolutionary (OK I'm overstating things but I hope you get the point). I never thought I would be utilizing Marxist social theory to explain the social leveling of Soto Zen practice as facilitated by the internet - but, I am all for it!!

This is my sangha, you are my community, and I am in for the long run!

gassho,
Yugen

[Hoyu]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

You go Yugen! _/_

I have heard the argument quite a bit on how the Dharma can't be spread through the Internet and that person to person is the only way. To this I think, sure it is easy for many to say this. But could they possibly look someone in the face, who lets say have an illness or disibility which prevents them from going to a Zendo in person, and tell them directly that their Dharma is not real because their only access to it is through the Internet? Well this is Treeleaf and we do have members in such situations! It doesn't get any more real than that folks.

Gassho,
John

[Jiki22]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

i agree with 'teaching and transmission is best done person to person'

because there is much fake going arround on the internet
people posing as a teacher...
people claiming wisdom who they have copying from others
also searching for accurate information on the Internet is an almost impossible thing
as starter in the Dharma it really is difficult to see good stuff from bad stuff.

this Forum on the other hand is a lot different,
in many aspects, so please do not feel attacked by my words
A master has to see your bodylanguage to be sure of your honosty.
if it is by direct or with camera (like in here)

and yes even in real life you can have the wrong teacher or wrong dharma too.
:cry:

Thank you

[Yugen]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Jiki,
Good morning and a deep gassho - thank you for your words.

I do not feel attacked at all, indeed I agree with everything you have said. A process of experience and authenticity is required I think to feel comfortable in a forum such as ours..... my level of comfort with this sangha has been three years in the making and is the result of many experiences.

You are absolutely correct regarding the proliferation of information and "masters" via the internet, and it is difficult to find teaching and information that is authentic.... one must use one's own experience and judgement. In the end, for me, my measure of a teacher and community is "how well do they walk the walk?" I have found the teachers and fellow practitioners in this sangha to be authentic, honest, and principled. Most importantly in my mind, they are very quick to point out the limits of zen practice as well as their own knowledge.... Zen is not promised here as a cure-all for the mental or physical afflictions that accompany our physical existence... merely as a path or way.... and one that allows for, and indeed encourages the pursuit of other practices or disciplines. Indeed, I think Jundo and Taigu are very exacting in the use of "fine print" warnings on the instruction labels for the use of Zazen! ( backgrounds as an attorney and scholar) :wink:

I do not encourage anyone to "jump in" and accept everything at face value... indeed one must question, test, and examine the places they go to for community. I have been at Treeleaf for over three years and my level of comfort has been that long in the making.

There is no question that "the person to person transmission" or teaching aspect is still viable and important.... and indeed in use here at Treeleaf.... I have had some remarkably profound and direct skype video calls with Jundo and sangha colleagues.... and there are aspects of our practice and training at Treeleaf that do take place in person... witness this winter's retreat in Europe, or the fact that our priests-in-training will have to undertake some of their practice in person in Japan over time... this sangha has its physical as well as virtual aspects. So Jiki, I am in full agreement with your observations....

Part of my level of comfort and appreciation for this sangha derives from the opportunity to have discussions like this with people like you. Thank you.

Yugen

[tedmac]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Hi all; I saw this thread a few days back and refrained from commenting. Then I saw it again, and decided that my reluctance to comment might well just be one of my own mental barriers. Here goes.

I see no need to defend Treeleaf. I have no idea whether online dharma transmission is the same as flesh-to-flesh transmission. Are all in-the-flesh transmissions the same? I enjoy the Sangha as much for its constant presence as for my participation in it. It works for me. If I lived within 200 miles of a physical Zen center, would I still be here? I don't know. When that happens, I'll let you know.

I do agree with some of what Stephanie and others say, particularly about the weaving of stories. I rarely post on the forums, for a few reasons: 1) I have a tendency to ramble and get caught in my own ego-narratives, and the forums feed that; 2) I live in a rural area, and my internet connection isn't great; 3) others usually say what I would have said, and I see no need to chime in with "me too!" or a gratuitous thanks. These are the sorts of problems I see with an online Sangha. In general, I find posts about sitting, home liturgy, books and their different interpretations, etc. to be extremely useful. Meta-threads like this one (threads about Treeleaf itself) are far less interesting to me. They seem too much like collective naval-gazing. Still, some people likely benefit from the discussion and if so I'm in no position to judge.

Recently one of my colleagues, a researcher who writes a lot for wider public audiences (I won't name him here) confessed that he suffers greatly because he is continually accused of grandstanding, seeking fame, etc. I am fairly well certain that that isn't the case--he is just a person who believes in his cause, and he has little ego invested in being on stage. Where his ego *is* invested is in worrying about those who interpret his public presence as a call for personal attention. I think Treeleaf as an organization might learn from that. The sangha here is trying to engage in a form of Right Action. No need for a defense.

Remember the story of Hakuin Ekaku?

A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near Hakuin. One day, without any warning, her parents discovered she was pregnant. This made her parents angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin.

In great anger the parents went to the master. "Is that so?" was all he would say.

After the child was born it was brought to Hakuin. By this time he had lost his reputation, which did not trouble him, but he took very good care of the child. He obtained milk from his neighbors and everything else the child needed.

A year later the girl could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth - the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fish market.

The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back.

Hakuin willingly yielded the child, saying only: "Is that so?"

(from Reps, Paul; Nyogen Senzaki. Zen Flesh, Zen Bones: A Collection of Zen and Pre-Zen Writings. ISBN 0-8048-3186-6.)(copied from Wikipedia)

[Taigu]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Hi,

To make a few things clear: nobody here is thinking about transmission, we are dealing with practice. The issue of transmission should not be discussed by people, it is the sole business of teachers 8) . I think I can speak Jundo's mind saying that we are not considering giving transmission in the near future. There is a long way to go for everybody. This place, here and now, is a training and practice place where everybody is invited to sit and work. At the moment, I am also working a lot preparing the retreat to come.

Take great care of yourself!

gassho

Taigu

[Dokan]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

This place, here and now, is a training and practice place where everybody is invited to sit and work.

Perfectly simple and simply perfect. Thanks.

s

[Yugen]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Greetings all,
Since I am the one who introduced the word "transmission" into the discussion, I should be clear in my use of terminology, which was a bit careless... in this case I really should use the terminology "practice" or "sharing of knowledge, or dharma." The term "transmission" has a particular meaning which was not appropriate, timely, or intended for the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to infer or go anywhere in the direction of raising the issue of lineage transmission, Dharma heir(s), etc. Notwithstanding my poor use of terminology, I still feel very strongly that the judicious and proper use of the internet as a medium for communication, practice, and sharing of the Dharma is a revolutionary development, which some people in the Soto community feel uncomfortable with, and often default therefore to the position that internet-based community is not authentic in nature or rigourous in practice.

Thank you for the clarification Taigu.

gassho,
Yugen

[Taigu]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

Thank you for your kind words, Yugen.
We would indeed describe this (what we do here) as Dharma practice which includes lay pratice and priest training.

gassho

Taigu

[Yugen]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

A deep bow

Yugen

[tedmac]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

And in this case I also used the word 'transmission' carelessly, outside its more specific meaning. Dharma practice it is.
-Ted

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

By the way, this thread could just as easily be called "Why Treeleaf Does Not Need to be Defended".
Gassho,
Soen

[Jinyu]

Re: In Defense of Treeleaf

this thread could just as easily be called "Why Treeleaf Does Not Need to be Defended".

:mrgreen: Thank you for this!

Ah... Authentification, certification, transmission,... a crucial matter in modern Mahayana Buddhism... but since when? and who is the "business of Dharma transmission" benefiting?
In the past one could buy a "Dharma transmission certificate" in China, and in the west some received Dharma transmission during the traditional ritual (night, incense,...) surrounded by other monks drinking and laughing (I've been told many times). Two terrible situations but they help to understand that it is not the Dharma transmission or the precepts transmission per se that is important, but the relation, the practice, the effort that it mean!

A true transmission of Dharma, of precepts,... is a true relation. And I understand in a way, that people being part of certain big and established institutions sees the free and natural, even harmonious way we use in this Sangha as something bad and beyond their understanding of transmitting the Buddha's way.
But the way things are in Treeleaf is very close to the way things were in early Chan communities, a common moral rule (the precepts), and informal and deep relations and practice.
Our Temple and the Dharma is our life, that is a huge statement when you only see the "Buddhist world" as enclosed reality limited to big temples, fancy clothes, and papers bearing fancy stamps. When we can't perceive what is the true meaning of receiving the precepts or receiving Dharma transmission, we can grasp on forms forgetting the sense, the true meaning of what these simple ritual are about.

enough gibberish talk, sorry for this...
Have a very nice day everyone!

Deep gassho,
jinyu

Our simple existence is an act of compassion, let it be so.