Fear of Death

[anista]

Re: Fear of Death

Hello John,

Thank you for your reply!

I don't have conscious memories of age one either. However we should not assume everyone is like us. Perhaps some people do? Of course we can go back even further in age to limit the likeliness and try to prove its possible to exist without them. Hell we could use plants as an example! Instead we can drop that because we don't even need to use the concept of memory as a sole determining factor to examine nonexistence.

If you notice lack of memory, though a part of it, is not only what I believe makes us exist or not. I also mentioned physical form and the 5 senses. The way i see it the more you take away from the equation the closer to nothingness you get. No form, no thoughts, no seeing, no hearing, no smelling, etc (wow, now i'm starting to hear the heart sutra playing in my head!). If you have absolutely no way to perceive anything how can you possibly be considered to be anything more than nothingness?

Well, my point was that since I don't have memory of any kind when I was 1, I too did not have the five senses or the physical form. No matter how many photographs there are of me, I don't remember anything. However, the Buddha (and several others) did see how their senses and forms were in previous lives. We shouldn't discard everything just because we haven't got that far in our practice, don't you think? As I wrote in another thread, there is still belief involved (in my experience). What I find odd (but not wrong) is how easy it is to neglect, discard or contradict the Buddha's teachings under the guise of the zen banner (not saying that you do, just how I interpret things). As to your last sentence -- there is a way to perceive that which came before, and that is through practice.

Anista wrote:
I am also curious if you consider yourself to be a materialist, adhering to what Zen buddhist teacher Sante Poromaa called "the (natural)-scientific materialistic view of life -- a finite, isolated event with a distinct beginning and a distinct end".

I don't, but its okay with me if you do.

But didn't you say that "when the light's out the show's over"? Isn't that the same thing? if it's not, then I guess this is where I was a little confused. Please note that I'm not talking about your actions living on, since a materialist of the above definition would tend to agree with that as well. I'm talking about your consciousness. That is, you came from nothing, and will return to nothing.

Anista wrote:
May I ask you how you reconcile the Buddha's teaching with such a perspective?

I didn't know i had to :shock:
In your opinion which of Buddha's teachings do I need to?

Obviously *you* do not have to. My mistake. I would have to, though. If I was, for example, believing that God created me, I would have to reconcile that with the Buddha's teaching that there can be no immortal, that there can be no first cause, that everything is subject to decay and death, even the Gods. I would have to think hard if I would call myself a Buddhist, even though I rejected this vital part of impermanence. I would think, why do I want to be a Buddhist when I'm rejecting buddhism. Again, I'm not saying you do, I was simply curious *if* you ever thought of this, and in that case, how you came to the conclusions that you did in spite of what the Buddha teaches.

I was, among other things, referring to rebirth, and how your stream of consciousness continues even after you are dead. This would be an outcome of samsara. If we come from nothingness, and end up in nothingness, there is no samsara, and there is no liberation from samsara. Without liberation, Buddha was wrong. If Buddha was wrong, why be a buddhist? You see my chain of reasoning?

This was how I saw it. I was most likely wrong. That was why I asked for your views.

[Seiryu]

Re: Fear of Death

I found this short video about death and thought it was insightful.

Anyway...I'll share it:

[youtube]

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Gassho

Seiryu

[Taigu]

Re: Fear of Death

Very valuable posts here...
The all question of death is an a... kicker. It is what takes you to the cushion and stop procrastinating. At the same time it can be seen as a huge possibility to fantasize and project all sorts of wied and wild expectations.
The difficulty, and this is a big one, is not to turn death into something else, not to manipulate it. All religions do, they basically wrap death up,justify the whole process. The will tell you that once you go through that gate it is either or.The difficulty, as I see it now, it to drop and the romantic, sentimental, self-centered approach to death. At the same time we may learn how to recognize it here and now in every single breath. To be familiar with changes taking place. to accept that this is fleeting, going and not just tomorrow. Every moment. So being aware of death is a formidable opportunity to come back in the present ( as many old Greek philosophers pointed out).

The rest is metaphysics. And why not? But I am not a big fan of this way of looking at the universe.
The fact is that psychologically, the thought of death has the power to unleash hope and fear and with them pictures that haunt us like strange ghosts ( some ghosts coming from some kind of future). And this terrifying or blissfull how is a direct expression of a deluded activity.

Living in and out of the Being-time expressed by Shikantaza and spoken of by Dogen, we are invited , on the spot, to drop all worries and expectations. Not because we should, but just as there is not anymore need for them.

Have a great Sunday


gassho




Taigu

[will]

Re: Fear of Death

Death. I don't think about it. Used to. Used to have all kinds of thought like who will come to my funeral when I die, and what I will tell everyone when I get cancer, and yadayadayada. Zazen is now. Not then. Thoughts come and go, the best we can do is practice I think.

Gassho

W

[Kaishin]

Re: Fear of Death

I was, among other things, referring to rebirth, and how your stream of consciousness continues even after you are dead. This would be an outcome of samsara. If we come from nothingness, and end up in nothingness, there is no samsara, and there is no liberation from samsara. Without liberation, Buddha was wrong. If Buddha was wrong, why be a buddhist? You see my chain of reasoning?

This is a very literalist view of rebirth. If you search around, you'll see many who view it in more of a metaphorical sense (Jundo included). We are born and die in every moment, karma expressing itself in every second.

You are right that Zen does not emphasize rebirth (especially literal reincarnation). I think that is because it does not matter. Or as the Buddha might have said, "the question does not fit the case." As Brad Warner mentioned (discussed recently), if reincarnation exists, then you are already living the result of a previous life--better use it well! And if reincarnation doesn't exist, then this life is the only one you've got--better use it well!

So, if you say that someone doesn't "believe" in reincarnation isn't a Buddhist, well I think you will find many, many who would disagree. Sorry if I am misinterpreting your words. From reading your posts, I can see you are studied in the Theravadin texts, and it just seemed like perhaps you are annoyed with how Zen deals with many of these.

Also, you mention say that "there is a way to perceive that which came before, and that is through practice"--by this do you mean that through practice you can perceive past lives? If so, what do you mean by "practice"?

Finally, the only thing I will say about "...how easy it is to neglect, discard or contradict the Buddha's teachings under the guise of the zen banner" is... the Buddha was human! I think we should always question the teachings (though not necessarily discard). Blind faith is dangerous. Especially when, like so many religious texts, the recorded teachings have been through so many translations over the centuries after being recorded only centuries after the death of the Buddha. Who knows, maybe the Buddha didn't exist! Not trying to be incendiary, just highlighting that our day-to-day experience is really all we have.

OK, that is very rambling. I hope it makes sense. I really like to read your posts, they are always very interesting!

Gassho,
Matt

[Kaishin]

Re: Fear of Death

How do we know that life is rare or not so rare? ... I guess what I am saying is that I don't like to talk about how "special" or "precious" life is,

Rare, maybe we'll never know, but I would definitely argue for precious. Life is so fragile, we are here for such a short time, and it's certainly wondrous.

But it isn't a simple matter, as you've elaborately noted!

I think that in the shortening of my quote up there, the meaning has been somewhat altered. The whole thing is:

"I guess what I am saying is that I don't like to talk about how "special" or "precious" life is, nor do I like to cynically define it as something heavy, biological and meaningless. I just don't know what... [life] is..!"

I don't want anyone coming away from my post with the idea that I don't find life to be absolutely wonderful, wondrous, precious, awesome, (insert adjective); etc, in my own human way.

Ah, sorry! I didn't mean to misrepresent your thoughts!

-Matt

[AlanLa]

Re: Fear of Death

I was fairly close to death once. Though not exactly at the brink, I was yet close enough. But really, how close do you have to be? I found the experience very life-giving and life-changing. Honestly, I can't imagine my life without my encounter with death. There's Zen there, folks.

Anyway, I stumbled upon this "proof" that death does not exist, so I post the link here. I warn you; it's loooong.

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/2grsGB/bardcan.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/thoughts-on-the-toughest-questions-we-face

[Hoyu]

Re: Fear of Death

Hi Anista,
I agree with Taigu Sensei and Matt's recent posts. I'd love to quote many of the wonderful things they say on the matter but in keeping my response more simplified I will not be doing so.

Anista wrote:
when I was 1, I too did not have the five senses or the physical form. No matter how many photographs there are of me, I don't remember anything.

I don't understand how you consider yourself not to have had physical form or the 5 senses? Do you believe that because you don't have memories you didn't physically exist? Did you not see light, hear sound, taste milk? Just because you don't remember those experiences does't mean you didn't have them. What about the photos. They are picture proof of your physical form. Yet you still reject them? It seems like you put less belief in your own photos, which you have seen, than in words of someone(not the buddha)which is supposed of someone else's words(the buddha's) that you've read.

However, the Buddha (and several others) did see how their senses and forms were in previous lives.

They did? How do you know?

I was, among other things, referring to rebirth, and how your stream of consciousness continues even after you are dead.

It does? How do you know?

I was, among other things, referring to rebirth, and how your stream of consciousness continues even after you are dead. This would be an outcome of samsara. If we come from nothingness, and end up in nothingness, there is no samsara, and there is no liberation from samsara. Without liberation, Buddha was wrong. If Buddha was wrong, why be a buddhist? You see my chain of reasoning?

Ideas like Samsara, reincarnation, karma, etc were not original ideas of the Buddha but rather the prevailing thoughts of Hinduism which the Buddha incorporated. If the teachings of Hinduism weren't available to the Buddha would he even have come up with such things on his own? Say he was born into a culture of Christian prevailing thought do you not think Buddhism would be different? So then what exactly is this Buddhism that you seem to be so concretely set on as a fixed way to judge who or how one should be Buddhist?

Gassho,
John

[Seiryu]

Re: Fear of Death

Ideas like Samsara, reincarnation, karma, etc were not original ideas of the Buddha but rather the prevailing thoughts of Hinduism which the Buddha incorporated. If the teachings of Hinduism weren't available to the Buddha would he even have come up with such things on his own? Say he was born into a culture of Christian prevailing thought do you not think Buddhism would be different? So then what exactly is this Buddhism that you seem to be so concretely set on as a fixed way to judge who or how one should be Buddhist?

Remember the example of an old cow, She's content to sleep in a bam. You have to eat, sleep, and shit. That's unavoidable. Beyond that is none of your business. ~Patrul Rinpoche

When you meet the Buddha on the road kill the Buddha. I always thought about this quote.

When Buddhism begins to get in your way, drop Buddhism and keep going.

As one wise person once said; We do not yet understand the realm of man, how then we we understand the realm of the gods. We do not yet understand life, how then can we understand death...

The teachings should be a reminder to sit and practice. To smile and show love. Concepts are nice, they help, but in the end, do they really matter. Buddha said his teachings are like a raft, to be let go of when the time is right. The teachings are not to be fixed into stone, they are alive and growing in each of us. With this in mind, embrace the Buddha, hug the Buddha, but the moment he starts to get annoying smack him upside his head and put him in time-out

Gassho

Seiryu

[Hoyu]

Re: Fear of Death

Hi All,

Just to clarify I have nothing against the Buddha or his teachings. My point is that I believe Buddhism to be more dynamic than static. The fact that there are many different sects of Buddhism clearly shows that the teachings of the Buddha have been digested and incorporated by the minds of many. None of the ways being more or less valid than the others. I believe the buddha's message is like a compass. As long as you arrive does it matter whether you traveled in a big boat or small boat(just metaphors for the different interpretations of the teachings). Should we not seek what the Buddha sought without getting caught up in concepts along the way? The finger and the moon yes? Perhaps this is the trappings of the study of Buddhism? I like the idea of dropping the concepts and just sitting, so I go with it. I believe that shikantaza is the ultimate expression of the Buddha way. I also understand that this is only how I feel about things. No right no wrong.

Gassho,
John

[Shokai]

Re: Fear of Death

This certainly is a fascinating thread. As much as death fascinates anyone that is able to get past their fear of it, is it really important that I understand it? Should I waste too much time on it?
Shohei wrote;

Thing is I wasted so many moments worrying about death!!

I was once told by a ninety-three year old that she believed her death would be a wondrous and enjoyable experience and, if it wasn't, "who cares?"
She lived to be 103 but, her last six or seven years were in a state of vegetation such as she had truly feared.

I've always believed, at least since I was four years old when I witnessed my grandmother's death and how it affected those about her, that we are packets of energy waiting to be released back into the universe. I recall the prayer learned at my mother's bidding, which concludes, "and should I die before i wake ....." (of course i also wondered where god was going to take my soul !! :roll: ) And, then came the scientific postulation that energy is neither created nor destroyed. :shock:
This is perhaps why I feel so comfortable with zazen. 'Right Nows', the present moments, are all that we trully have. Is this the way we wish to spend them?

Realizing that we shall probably never end this thread, i'd just like to say, " Please forgive me, I forgive you; thank you, I love you!"