Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

[will]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Just some food for non-thoughts...

Real understanding has nothing to do with our head.
There is nothing wrong with our head.
No need to be headless chicken or man.
What is really wrong is how attached we are with what 's going on up there.

This thread is great, a good refresher. Go on, bring the notions and potions. Let's have a look at this.

gassho


Taigu

But didn't Dogen argue that only painted rice cakes could satisfy hunger? Yes, there is nothing wrong with our head, but as Jundo always notes, we are human and need to let our minds work on ideas, too. Are discussion of the four noble truths, paramitas, et al not useful for everyone, but especially for those new to Buddhism/Zen? Why do we spend so much time studying for Jukai when real understanding has nothing to do with our head?

Maybe we need a bit of thinking along with our thinking-non-thinking? It seems perspectives are different for those who've been practicing for decades as opposed to a few years!

I don't know...

Study the self, and then drop it. When we are this, then things are whole. Nothing to gain. All is fine, but where does that leads us? Does it lead us down a path of continual consumption or want, or does it lead us to a more rightous direction. Playing with Karma.

Let's put it this way. I could sit Zazen all day, and then the next perhaps I may revert to the same old same old. It's a matter of just being you. Through and through. So, If you want to study Buddhism, then please, go ahead. If you want anything at all, it's not Zen.

Gassho (and part of our practice. Bright illumination, and pain. All the same)

_/_ W

[Taigu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

We are all beginners, Matto. And I totally agree with you. To study is important and precious as long as it takes us to the cushion where what we have studied is alive and lived. I always invite people to sit and let Buddha do the job. in challenging ( a bit) the will to understand, I am pointing at a real tendency in alll of us to turn fresh water into concepts. But of course study is very important, NOT SEEN AS SEPARATE FROM SHIKANTAZA. As to Shobogenzo 's painted cake, please help yourself...
Will puts it in a very good way:

if you want to study Buddhism, then please, go ahead. If you want anything at all, it's not Zen.

That being said, yes, it is a very good idea.

gassho


Taigu

[Rich]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Life is suffering
If you follow your thinking and emotions
Just being and returning tojustbeing is nirvana, is peace, is the balanced state
But we don't stay in any one state or place
We go to work helping ourselves and others.
getting all caught up in this
Wehave to practice returning to just this

What's the 2nd one?

[Risho]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

One thing.. As Taigu noted Don't thing less of yourself, that you are weaker, less informed, etc. Daido Roshi said, "self deprecation is the sign of a big ego."

I'm not trying to be provocative.

In any case thank you all for your thoughtful responses and this topic.

Gassho

Risho

[Taigu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Don't worry Risho, I am not :twisted: . teachers are all different, they talk about the same mountain from a slight different viewpoint. In this case could you be more precise? What does Daido say that I did not?

Thank you

gassho


T.

[Hoyu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Hi All,

This discussion reminds me of the post Edward started a while ago titled "Study Buddhism?".
Many of the same thoughts and ideas are playing out here. Seems like a hot topic as there still is many opinions on it!

Gassho,
John

[Seiryu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Hi All,

This discussion reminds me of the post Edward started a while ago titled "Study Buddhism?".
Many of the same thoughts and ideas are playing out here. Seems like a hot topic as there still is many opinions on it!

Gassho,
John

Very true.

I just came to realize just how important a steady sitting practice is in conjunction with study. If we just sit just because someone tells us to with no study, that might not be so beneficial since we won't really know why are what we are doing, and if we just study without sitting, then we will never get to experience what is being studied and the whole thing we just remain an idea. ....ah the middle way

I just came from a class taught by a Tibetan monk, the whole class was engage in a debate over what does it mean that something is lacking inherent existence. And it went back and forth, arguing over definitions, karma, rebirth, the whole nine yards. I wondered if debating like that was going too far off...maybe a short sit would have brought everything back down to a calmer state.

interesting though...

Gassho

Seiryu

[Hoyu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Seiryu wrote:
If we just sit just because someone tells us to with no study, that might not be so beneficial since we won't really know why are what we are doing, and if we just study without sitting, then we will never get to experience what is being studied and the whole thing we just remain an idea. ....ah the middle way

Your words here are like music to my ears! _/_

[Taigu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Yes, very wise words Seiryu.
Cursing the sky, the dragon bites his tail.
tales fall apart. One, two, three ...


The Middle way...it is not the in-between. It is the one with. Practice as study, study as practice. When ractice and study cannot be differenciated. Somethig along that line.


gassho


Taigu

[ghop]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

I like Thich Nhat Hanh's interpretation of the Four Noble Truths.

Suffering is real and cannot be avoided.

Suffering gives us a chance to look into the cause of suffering. Very important step!

And the Third Noble Truth is my favorite. That although there is suffering, joy is possible.

Like suffering, joy too has a cause.

Too often we get stuck in our suffering without realizing what a tremendous opportunity it gives us to realize freedom and joy. Suffering is not the end-all-be-all of this path. Joy is. Freedom is. Thich actually thinks that we should reverse the order of the Four Noble Truths. This is an interesting idea. Any thoughts?

gassho
Greg

[Hoyu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Taigu wrote:
The Middle way...it is not the in-between. It is the one with. Practice as study, study as practice. When ractice and study cannot be differenciated. Somethig along that line.

Thank you Taigu Sensei for the reminder that practice and study are inseparably one and the same!

Gassho,
John

[Kaishin]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

I like Thich Nhat Hanh's interpretation of the Four Noble Truths.

Suffering is real and cannot be avoided.

Suffering gives us a chance to look into the cause of suffering. Very important step!

And the Third Noble Truth is my favorite. That although there is suffering, joy is possible.

Like suffering, joy too has a cause.

Too often we get stuck in our suffering without realizing what a tremendous opportunity it gives us to realize freedom and joy. Suffering is not the end-all-be-all of this path. Joy is. Freedom is. Thich actually thinks that we should reverse the order of the Four Noble Truths. This is an interesting idea. Any thoughts?

gassho
Greg

I think that would go along way to helping people see that Buddhism is not morbid or obsessed with suffering! "Suffering is real and cannot be avoided" sounds so much better than the "Life is suffering" I've heard elsewhere.

You bring up an important distinction, that it's not so much an escape from suffering (running in fear), but an embrace, to see that the way out is through. I know that my perspective on suffering--any unpleasant experience, really--is quite different since I started practicing. I no longer dwell on it, but question it, try to get to the heart of it. And often I do find joy on the other side. But then not to get attached to joy!

Gassho,
Matt

[Taigu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Joy has no cause.
The meaning of Nirvana is cessation.
The causeless is Nirvana.

Joy comes, as flowers, simple or big things, a morning shower, a friend's face. Sitting. Laughing.
cannot split this into cause and effect ( the very big Buddhist trip), cause and effect so true, all along.

but here, but now
Joy has no cause


Does it ring a bell???

gassho


Taigu


PS: Great stuff from the guy though. I quite like the idea of ending in the way it starts.
For you and me, very true.

[Saijun]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

I like Thich Nhat Hanh's interpretation of the Four Noble Truths.

Suffering is real and cannot be avoided.

Suffering gives us a chance to look into the cause of suffering. Very important step!

And the Third Noble Truth is my favorite. That although there is suffering, joy is possible.

Like suffering, joy too has a cause.

Too often we get stuck in our suffering without realizing what a tremendous opportunity it gives us to realize freedom and joy. Suffering is not the end-all-be-all of this path. Joy is. Freedom is. Thich actually thinks that we should reverse the order of the Four Noble Truths. This is an interesting idea. Any thoughts?

gassho
Greg

Hello Greg,

I've gradually learned to see them sort of differently:

1.) There is stress (or dissatisfaction, if you prefer--they mean the same to me) inherent in life.
2.) This stress comes from a deep craving for things to be as we want them to be, rather than as they are.
3.) There is a Way to the let go of this craving, and end stress/dissatisfaction.
4.) This Way is comprised of the Noble Eightfold Path.

I think that the whole of the Dharma can sort of be boiled down into that old joke:

"Doctor! Doctor! It hurts when I do this! [does it] Ow!"
"Well, then, stop doing that."

(See viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2926 for more detailed and entertaining exploration)

And "this" refers to clinging, and the whole of the practice is learning how to "stop doing that." When I (we?) sit Shikantaza, it provides us a chance to let go of everything, good and bad and whatever is in between. Suffering and joy are concepts that define each other. When we sit, and let go of all of our definitions and concepts, what is left?

For this reason, I'm not sure that I agree with Rev. TNH's view on this (though I'm sure that it is much more informed by experience than mine is). And as far as reversing the order, I don't necessarily think it's quite that simple; I, at least, came to the Dharma after having deeply, deeply experienced the first Noble Truth, and began working on the Noble Eightfold Path. I'm rather dubious of the notion that people come to work on suffering when everything is peachy (at least initially).

As I work with the Eightfold Path, it consistently shows me the validity of the 3rd Truth, and allows me to experience the freedom of the 2nd.

Just initial thoughts.

Metta,

Saijun

EDIT: Just saw Rev. Taigu's post after hitting "Submit," and it raised a question--do you think that it is possible to not get attached to even causeless joy? Would that be the end of the path, or is there something beyond?

[Hoyu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

I think that would go along way to helping people see that Buddhism is not morbid or obsessed with suffering! "Suffering is real and cannot be avoided" sounds so much better than the "Life is suffering" I've heard elsewhere.

Hi All,
Something I had heard before is that life is suffering is a translation different from how the Buddha actually worded it. It was said to be something more along the line of life is not having contentment. I can't remember exactly how it was put but the speaker stressed the difference. Perhaps someone here may shed some light on this?

Gassho,
John